Ditching the diesel inboard engine

[TrentePieds]

As Thomm225 so rightly sez: "It all depends on what type sailing you are doing and where."

Absolutely! A 3-ton boat in the Hampton Roads is a very different proposition from a three ton boat wo die Nordseewellen trekken and den Strand which they do with some considerable conviction all down the European west coast from the Skaw to Calais. All along the Jutland coast, which is INEVITABLY a lee shore, there are very nasty sand bars lying quite some distance off shore. That's just to get you in the mood for the Waddenmeer :-)

A Bristol 27 sailing in the same water as a smallish (judging by the pics) steel-built boat of a provenance we have not been told about, is a different proposition.

Thomm also sez: "Part of my problem with diesels especially old ones that smell and leak..."

Why would a diesel, even an old one, smell and leak, Thomm? Is that not really, and almost solely, a function of the quality of the ship's husbandry?


And Thomm sez further: "On top of that, you need all that associated engine support to go with the diesel....to include prop shaft, stuffing box, muffler, motor mounts..."

Absolutely! Since they are already in the OPs boat and are things that only require periodic inspection and rarely, rarely need repair, let alone replacement, why not just leave them there?

And again: " thruhull for cooling (sometimes)"

Uhm... Always! Where would you get cooling water from if not from below the waterline?


And yet again: " fuel tank, controls, all the wiring, etc. Then the engine has to be aligned to the shaft."

None of these items ever go wrong - provided of course that you keep your boat tidy and don't "repair" or "upgrade" things that don't need it.

To come back for a moment to where you sail: There is NO WAY that you can sail up to Chatterbox Falls in Princess Luisa Inlet. Malibu rapids gets in the way. There is NO WAY you should attempt Dent Rapids under sail alone. If you are taken by the current it may very well be curtains!

So let's not be too doctrinaire about what a man chooses for power. It is noteworthy that so many responding to the OP have said "stick with the diesel". There just HAS to be a reason for that :-)!

TrentePieds




"

[boatman61]

Keep the old diesel engine if you can get it running, the hand crank facility is great for low budget motoring.. loved my old Volvo Md2b for that, just hold up the compression lever with left hand while my right got the crank spinning then move my finger and away she'd go.. Who needs batteries..
As for dirty and smelly, everything is if you let it get that way.
I have sailed boats with inboard, outboards and no engine over the years.. outboards are great for flattish waters and modest currents but for open waters like the Biscay and N Sea where rise and falls can be 10+ metres and ebbs of 7kts+ they are spitting into the wind if stern mounted, the well is more efficient such as in the Hurley 22 but even that will lift out in a seaway..
Without an engine you can get around fine but will need better planning for harbours and the coast of N France will cause you problems with fast ebbs and drying harbour which will give you short windows on rising tides to avoid lying on your side.. better to cross the Channel from Calais and travel the UK coast where the tides are gentler... plenty of anchorages from the Isle of Wight to Falmouth then jump across to Ushant.

[boatman61]

Oh.. and regarding the Biscay in summer, if your going straight across be prepared to sit and wait for wind.. spent just over 2 days doing that sun bathing and reading in my Corribee 21 mid Biscay with the occasional distraction of watching a boat motor over the horizon and pass close by to let the crews look at the wierdo on the dinghy with a lid in the middle of nowhere.. there's a lot of calm weather along the Portuguese coast as well from just N of Porto to Setubal..
But.. its all down to one's state of mind..

[MicHughV]

Sometime back, I had a friend that built a 36' Piver trimaran....also short on funds, he decided to power his tri with a 15 hp 4-stroke Honda outboard. This he cleverly located in the cockpit, under a cockpit seat, which allowed the engine shaft to extend down alongside the hull.

The engine could be extracted, and a fabricated plug placed there to fill the hole. In this way, you had a boat with no below surface drag, an ideal situation. Extracting the engine required the main boom positioned over the engine to be hoisted out.

On the surface, it was a good and practical idea.

The location of the outboard was probably 10' from the stern. It resided under the cockpit seat there, attached to a support he had fabricated. That particular location also had a vent to the side to feed air to the outboard, as well as an opening for the fuel line, so that the cockpit seat could be closed. I don't recall how deep the prop was immersed, but probably 15" or so.

All worked good well in calm water, and there were smiles all around. Being located inside the cockpit, there was little chance any pitching would move the prop out of the water, but in waves, the height of the wave, also rose inside that opening. Not long after, a wave bigger than others, swamped that engine and killed it. That was the end of that experiment and an inboard diesel soon followed.

There are certainly locations and situations where an outboard would likely do the tricks, ie, protected waters, but open ocean sailing is best served by an inboard diesel.

Sailboats are simply not a one size fits all. Tolerance and acceptance of alternate ideas and engine locations, should be the name of the game here.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Keep the old diesel engine if you can get it running, the hand crank facility is great for low budget motoring.. loved my old Volvo Md2b for that, just hold up the compression lever with left hand while my right got the crank spinning then move my finger and away she'd go.. Who needs batteries..
As for dirty and smelly, everything is if you let it get that way.
I have sailed boats with inboard, outboards and no engine over the years.. outboards are great for flattish waters and modest currents but for open waters like the Biscay and N Sea where rise and falls can be 10+ metres and ebbs of 7kts+ they are spitting into the wind if stern mounted, the well is more efficient such as in the Hurley 22 but even that will lift out in a seaway..
Without an engine you can get around fine but will need better planning for harbours and the coast of N France will cause you problems with fast ebbs and drying harbour which will give you short windows on rising tides to avoid lying on your side.. better to cross the Channel from Calais and travel the UK coast where the tides are gentler... plenty of anchorages from the Isle of Wight to Falmouth then jump across to Ushant.

As usual, Boatman, you make a lot of sense. And being able to hand start a diesel is a big plus.

BUT, (and I can be contrary so there is always a "but") when someone who doesn't quite know exactly what he is doing is troubleshooting an engine that he is not familiar with and doesn't know what, if anything, is wrong with it but most certainly at least needs to have the entire fuel system bled, there is gonna be a lot of cranking. Way more than usual. I think getting the electric starter operating properly is a good first step in rehabilitating that Bukh. Otherwise I agree with you and I hope he will practice hand starting the engine once it has been started with the electric. I wish my Westerbeast could be hand cranked. But when I have to bleed the injector lines I am mighty glad to have a starter to turn that dinosaur over.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

HAHAHA No, you won't sway him but that wouldn't be the point, anyway, right? I think the point is to present your opinion and your experience and offer suggestions ans solutions to those in need of them. The only reason to argue with someone online is to keep a helpful or potentially helpful solution under consideration by those in need of it, when it is shouted down by a naysayer. I think sometimes we get too combative and take it personal and make a war about it. Guns on boat vs no guns on boat. EP vs OB vs IB Diesel vs Atomic 4 vs oars vs sculling oar. All chain vs combination rode. This anchor vs that anchor. Manual head vs electric. Hanked jib vs roller furled. fin vs full vs in between keel. Folding prop vs fixed. A lively discussion helps those sitting on the fence or those without a clue but a war just spoils your digestion. And you won't convince people whose minds are made up, anyway, no matter how hard you try to confuse them with the facts.

Those fin vs full keel discussions have helped me quite a bit, and if I were to buy a larger boat in the near future, it will probably have a fin keel because I don't think I'd have time to become a natural at docking a full keel boat.

I have an outboard on my (modified) full keel sailboat with makes docking easy as I can turn that outboard through about 190 degrees plus.

Also, as an ex-racer I would like a bit more pointing ability and speed. More performance!

I actually like the look of boats like the C&C 32, Wauquiez Gladiateur 33, Wauquiez Pretorian 35, etc

[thomm225]

[QUOTE=GrowleyMonster;3419085
BUT, (and I can be contrary so there is always a "but") when someone who doesn't quite know exactly what he is doing is troubleshooting an engine that he is not familiar with and doesn't know what, if anything, is wrong with it but most certainly at least needs to have the entire fuel system bled, there is gonna be a lot of cranking. [/QUOTE]

Did I mention my outboard is (crank) pull start only!

Also it has no alternator.

I use solar only to power all my systems which includes several computers. (when I turn them on that is) I still use paper charts and visual clues mostly here and the OpenCPN when I get in close to anchor in good but sometimes shallow spots.

Some of these things I do on my boat goes back to the minimalist thing. I don't want a starter battery etc to deal with.

Even when I was doing the remote control plane thing back in the 90's, I refused to get an electric starter for the engines.

If you know engines, you'll know when the thing will start and when it won't without cranking yourself to death.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Thomm also sez: "Part of my problem with diesels especially old ones that smell and leak..."

Why would a diesel, even an old one, smell and leak, Thomm? Is that not really, and almost solely, a function of the quality of the ship's husbandry?


TrentePieds
"

Sure does and when I bought the boat the old engine was on it's last legs and leaked like a sieve.

The engine was 37 years old having been built in 1974. (my outboard is a 2011 bought new)

The boat was on the hard and had been for 5 years.

I bought it thinking the engine might not even work.

I bought a battery, changed the oil, ran a hose to it for cooling water, cranked it over a few times with the hand crank, then started it within a week after purchase still on the hard. (with new fuel)

I was pretty excited when it started, and it was about 95 degrees inside the cabin in July 2011.

Soon after launching, the gear box failed so I replaced that without removing the engine. (I had purchased a spare engine and gear box)

Then the engine failed (head Gasket) so I replaced it at the dock alone with that old spare I had bought which was quite dirty and leaked also. It later failed and I was about to sell boat and every thing when I decided to get an outboard.

So I pulled the second engine and started cleaning up the mess in the boat.....oil, grease, diesel, etc.

It was at that time having trouble adjusting to the boat's motion especially downwind with that constant rolling. It was blow chucks or close to that every time I crossed the lower bay where it meets the Atlantic but I finally found how to deal with it after a couple year and the loss of a few pounds.!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKTHfGSch5A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoW10TdIPnQ

[Narfi]

I would think that living a nomadic nautical lifestyle, trading for all of your needs as they come along, never worrying about tomorrow.... learning all you can about small diesel engines would vastly increase your trade value in any location you visit. There will always be people who need help with their small engines, its not working, its trading..... and who better to help with the engine troubles than you who is happy to do it for a smile, conversation, and some groceries or some spare boat part you currently need?

[MicHughV]

I started to build my boat back in the late 70's. I was full of piss and vinegar then. I had little money, but a-cruising I wanted to go. This may explain why my boat, at 38' had no engine....simply 'cuz I had no money...I had no electronics either....'cuz why....I had no money...nothing....I had a vhf radio.....and a car battery.....oil lamps...a fiberglass dink with a 2 hp Suzuki on it..no fridge....I had cold drinks when I could find ice.....
Wanna talk about being a minimalist....I'm your guy.....amazingly, I made it all work...mind you I was in my 20's then...no money..no insurance...no worries.
All my charts were paper...many copied from someone else...I learned to use a sextant...I kept a log book. I used a rope with knots in it to estimate my speed. I never knew how much water was under my keel....
The wind was my friend....I didn't care which direction it came from, as long as it blew. I had nothing in the way of weather gadgets. If it rained, I put foul weather gear on. Rain was good, it provided drinking water and washed the salt of the decks.
Looking back, I had a remarkable time.
Fast forward, these days, people have every possible type of modern convenience, gadget or device on their boat, but never leave the dock.
As the above poster stated, I odd-jobbed on other boats, fixed things, etc...made a few bucks here and there, but never worried about money. If I had $10 in my pocket, I felt rich.
But....I yearned for a nice diesel inside my boat....nay, I lusted for one...and eventually, was able to install one. Yes, it took more batteries, hoses, fuel, exhaust, holes in the hole, etc, etc...but lordy, lordy, lordy...what a difference it made to my life.

[thomm225]

We all near age 65 or so now had little money in the 70's which is why I bought a 16' wooden boat with an outboard (40 hp Johnson) for fishing with trailer for $300.

I made my money for the boat and my car payment driving a 6 cylinder diesel dual rear wheeled Oliver Tractor 12 hours a day either pulling a 7 bottom plow or 12' disk.....plus other jobs like fast food cook

But if I'd had a tractor and plow like in the video my days would have been much shorter if all I had to do was the same amount of production.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRkBnX55BwE&t=152s

I had another 5 boats in the next 8 years until age 24.

Then sailing started in the 80's in Tennessee.

[john manning]

It is not that long ago when most sailing vessels had no motor. They did sink more often in those days because they hit the hard more often. Your outboard sounds more like a stern thruster than something to move the yacht forward. That is the negative case.

It is not impossible to sail without a motor, just more difficult. You also need to plan your route in more detail. You need greater clearance from land, and when approaching land you need a plan that includes wind and tide calculations. Very good anchoring gear is essential. However do not plan to use it when going in or out of a harbour or bay, it will not save you at those times. Allways have the phone number or radio channel for a local rescue service before entering a harbour, even warn them in advance that you are arriving. Good luck.

[TrentePieds]

Well, yes, Growley. You are right, of course, in what you say in #126, but you and I have been around long enuff that we do things systematically, one little bit at a time.

Obviously the OP is a bit timid about what feeding and grooming the beast entails. That's why I offered to talk him through the basic electrics of getting his starter to crank the beast. I'd do it German, even, given that that's his native language :-). After that we can teach him - slowly - how to bleed the feed pipe twixt tank and pump [and how to make sure it doesn't leak and smell :-)!]. After that we can teach him how to bleed the pump to injector tubes. As you know, there really is nothing there that you can't teach a 12 year old boy in half an hour.

I think the OP's real problem is not having the minimum amount of income it takes to keep a boat. I know for damnsure that I couldn't feed myself for a hunnert Euros a month as he has said he does.

He may also be a bit intimidated by the fact that any question asked here immediately generates answers that range all over the shop, rather than ones that are strictly focused on the problem at hand. Thus he has the old problem of not really knowing how to tell the wheat from the chaff.

Anyway, my original offer stands: If the OP wants to/needs to learn how to wire up his starter circuit, I'll talk him through it. I'll even talk compression to 'im. Auf Deutsch sogar ;-)!

Cheers

TrentePieds

[MicHughV]

diesel engines are remarkably tough....my first diesel was a Volvo MD7B....it was SALT water cooled....what was I thinking.......and could be hand cranked....a feature I often used.
after a period of time, not exactly sure how this chain of events happened, but I got salt water into the engine....both cylinders were filled to the top, as was the oil sump.

I wasn't anywhere near any place that could even remotely help me.

So, I took the cylinder head off....the pistons had seized tight......but I sucked all the water out, took this opportunity to clean out all the water cooling passages, which were filled with salt crud....removed the oil...also thoroughly mixed with salt water and beat on the one piston with a large hammer until it got to the bottom of it's stroke, then I re-assembled everything, using all the old parts, cylinder head gasket included, put in some new oil and hit the starter motor.

Damned if that thing didn't start right up. It smoked a bit now, but I didn't care about that...it ran...and continued to run for several years after...

I developed a real love/hate thing for Volvo, but that little engine was a marvel..

So, I'm in the camp of ...if it's already in the boat, a little work is probably all it needs...

[Manateeman]

You don’t want to work...you know...like... actually have a job.
You know, hard work ...like you would find in boatyards where you could learn how to fix your diesel and have money to pay for parts.
You want to live a life of leisure without a job. You make that very, very clear.
We guess you are going to take this steel boat into waters where you have been advised, sail alone might not keep you from being wrecked...and you are ok with this...correct?
Your steel boat , with no money for maintenance ,will most likely become a wreck ...a hazard to navigation...for which others will have to work or pay taxes to remove it.
Some might approve of your lifestyle. Some would say it’s immature and narcissistic. What do you think are the responsibilities of other people toward you? Let’s say you actually get into the ocean. What survival chances do you think you have? If things go wrong...do you think it’s only about you?
You see... professional mariners are legally obligated to save your life.
They must risk their life saving you .
So when you set forth on what some may consider a “manifestly unsafe voyage”
that decision has consequences beyond what happens to you.
You are comfortable defecating in a bucket and then chucking it into the waters of Bremen. You don’t see any issue with this?
We see no reason to respond to any questions you might have.
Captain Mark
The manatee crew.