Do you like your canoe stern sailboat?

[Jammer]

Pacific Seacraft, among others, has made notable canoe-stern sailboats. I find them intriguing. Have you had one? If not, do you have friends who have had one? Did you like it?


How do they perform in a following sea?


What do you do to board your dinghy, or swim, or scuba dive, in the absence of a traditional swim platform?


How do you handle situations which call for Mediterranean mooring?



Are there any practical advantages to a canoe stern, aside from the esthetic visual beauty of good design?


Would you do it again?

[Bruce K]

Canoe stern boats are vastly superior to transom sterns when going backwards through surf!!!!!!!!!

[danielamartindm]

I've always loved canoe sterns esthetically, but they do reduce interior aft cabin space by at least 25%.

[danielamartindm]

Originally Posted by Bruce K

Canoe stern boats are vastly superior to transom sterns when going backwards through surf!!!!!!!!!

LOL Visual humor is potent.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Bruce K

Canoe stern boats are vastly superior to transom sterns when going backwards through surf!!!!!!!!!

Indeed!


Robert Perry on Double-Enders:
“... Back in the 70's there was still this idea that double enders make the best offshore boats. I never really went along with that idea although I always liked double enders. My attraction to double enders was an aesthetic one ...”
More ➥ I blog the Baba......................Part One - YACHT DESIGN
Bob Perry is also reputed to have said (with tongue-in-cheek), that “double-enders are good if you want to sail around the world backwards.”

An earlier discussion ➥ http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ers-48388.html

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by danielamartindm

I've always loved canoe sterns esthetically, but they do reduce interior aft cabin space by at least 25%.

Also make davits and Solar installations interesting, you need a longer boat to have the same storage.

We are no canoe stern, but I find boarding the dinghy from amidship much easier than from the stern. Diving wise, I put the gear in the dink, then get in the dinghy and from there to the big boat.
Maybe one day I’ll have a fold up swim platform fitted, find someone who can build it and paying for it are the hurdles of course

[mako]

I realize this thread is oriented towards sailboats, and I switched to motorboats a while ago, but here's my opinions:

Originally Posted by Jammer

How do they perform in a following sea?

Sailboats all have good rise to the buttocks and don't suffer from submerged and extremely wide transoms like motorboats, so this probably isn't such an issue. However if you're a bluewater cruiser in high latitudes and expect to be running/quartering in big seas often enough, then a canoe (or better yet a cruiser stern) might be something to consider.

Originally Posted by Jammer

What do you do to board your dinghy, or swim, or scuba dive, in the absence of a traditional swim platform?

Personally I hate boarding from swimming/scuba to a platform, slapping up and down. Midships is better. I was thinking in the future of welding up a midship ladder with a small 2'x3' platform about 8" above the waterline - this might be a good compromise.

Originally Posted by Jammer

Are there any practical advantages to a canoe stern, aside from the esthetic visual beauty of good design?

What's wrong with aesthetics for a motivation? As long as it meets your requirements and is reasonably seaworthy - you will love your vessel and be the envy of sailors everywhere!

[Suijin]

My Valiant has a canoe stern.

Pros:
1) Behaves VERY well in a following sea. She has a fat a$$, so there is lots of bouyancy, and perhaps because of the general design she tracks very well and has less of a tendency to slew than other boats. I think her downwind performance in a big following is is the best virtue of this design.

2) Minimal wave slap or other transom related issues at anchor

3) Pretty

Cons:
1) I think all of the above pros are outweighed, alone, by the inconvenience of not having a transom that is easy to board/swim from. I live aboard and anchor out almost exclusively, so I'm in and out of the dinghy or swimming A LOT. Much more than I'm in big following seas going "love that stern". lol

2) Less boat volume. Whether it's storage in lockers or other forms of space, you have less of it in a canoe stern.

3) I have a wind vane so don't have davits and that's pretty much true for any boat with a wind vane. You can put davits or an arch on a boat with a canoe stern so that's not really and issue, although it does make operating the davits incrementally more of a challenge.

As for stowing the dinghy, when it's not floating behind the boat it's either lifted side saddle to the boat (keep growth off, security) or on deck before the mast. I have a block and tackle that I clip onto a halyard, then onto the bow eye of the dink. The dink comes up vertically which makes it easy for me to maneuver it single-handed into position on the foredeck and then lower into position. With the right purchase and hand of rope for the tackle it's quick and easy, although one must think ahead as wind can be a factor.

If I had to do it over again, from a practical perspective, I might be less inclined to go with a canoe stern although the boat has enough other virtues which might override that.

[Bill O]

We actually have a double ender (DE) and will say it has both good/ok practical aspects to the design. We have also owned raked, flat and reverse transom boats.

The DE does sail directly down wind and handles the waves well. We just delivered a newer, more contemporary design boat and it definitely didn't like going down wind/handle the waves off the stern at all. Something to consider if you want to do the down wind trade routes. If not then just do more broad reaches if your boat doesn't like going dead down wind.

The pinching of the stern does reduce some storage area and stern deck lounging area, but can live with it for better direct down wind sailing. With our CC design, we do not notice any cockpit size reduction nor any aft cabin size reduction, so a non-factor.

Your LWL will not increase much when you heel over for increased speed compared to the raked transom, but you have the max. LWL when you are motoring. Obviously this is much better than compared to some boats that have long overhangs/raked transom. Also no butt slapping on a DE that may happen w/some lower reverse/sugar-scoop transom designs.

No sugar scoop access to get off the dinghy. As discussed by A64, we use amidship ladders for easier boarding. Found out a long time ago the stern ladder was not necessarily the best boarding position in a good swell. Due to our high free board, we lower scuba tanks, outboard and any other heavy items down into the dink with our heavy duty motor lift and is not a problem. In fact, using the lift is safer than trying to hold on/handle heavy items in a swell.

Compared to more modern CC designs there is less stern platform. Would like to have more stern deck area especially for fishing. We need to use poles off the stern to extend out the lure pattern off the sides. We do use hand line/yo-yos but due to their closer proximity, the lines can get entangled when one or both lines hook up w/bigger fish. We landed a large tuna on the last delivery on a contemporary designed boat w/a swim platform and in a decent sea state found it somewhat precarious to go down the stern platform, hold on and bring in a big fish. Also cleaning the bigger fish on a DE, one has a bit less area in the stern.

As we all know, boats are a compromise in their design and as long as it fits most of the intended usage/purpose, we work around them. For us, in a cruising boat, the DE design works for better sailing in the trades/down wind and we can live w/the small limitations in the stern platform.


Bill O.

[GordMay]

FWIW:
From Bob Perry’s “I Blog the Baba”
“... Oh, while I'm on it I should explain that I consider any boat with a point on the stern a "double ender". But I don't consider all double enders to have "canoe sterns".
Look at the classic Westsail 32. To me that is a true double ender. The stern post marks the end of the hull. The overhang aft is minimal at best.
With a canoe stern the profile of the stern is extended resulting in considerable overhang aft. Not really a lot, but compared to the Westsail type, considerable.
All canoe sterned boats are double enders. All double enders do not have canoe sterns ...”

[jenders]

I have a PSC34. In a following sea I've had 10-12 foot waves simply wrap around the stern and move ahead. But in windward conditions, especially in rolly-polly or washing-machine conditions, she hobby-horses a lot. I think that's prolly a function of a too-short waterline rather than the shape of the stern, though. Also, my boat has a lovely swim ladder on the tale end. It takes a bit of yoga under-over crawling to get off her, but it's still easier than a flimsy ladder on the side. I DO envy those with boats with a swim step, though.

[KTP]

We have a PSC34 also and the canoe stern has made it a pain to replace the rudder stuffing and quadrant (all of which could have been remedied by buying a tiller steered PSC34 but oh well).

I like the look of it though. I do wish there was a way to mount a kicker easily. I can come up with visions of some sort of offset strut thing but I don't want it to look butt ugly. We repowered with all electric drive so a kicker would be nice just as a backup.

[Cheechako]

I think it's mainly aesthetics. Some I like, some don't look right to me. The canoe on the boat in my avatar looked great from the side, but looked "bulbous" from the stern.
Hard to beat a modern swim step stern though. And a canoe is mostly impossible to put a stern ladder on well.

[Cpt Mark]

Originally Posted by danielamartindm

I've always loved canoe sterns esthetically, but they do reduce interior aft cabin space by at least 25%.

hahahahahahahahahahahaha! 25 %? Wherever did you get this ridiculous number from? Ok, maybe if the boat was like 5 feet long.

I had a Landfall 39 (Taiwanese built not to be confused with the Canadian built) which had a double end. I hung an Autohelm wind vane off the back. This was an old huge external rudder wind vane not the electrical type.

My boat was 40 LOA and yes, you lost a bit of room in the back but the design of that boat you lost very little storage. The design was the key. In looking for a boat for my sister to live on we looked at a lot of boats and couldn't find the right one. One day I spotted a Flicka and said lets go look at this one. Too small she said, forget it. I told her it was out of her price range anyway but the design for cruising was amazing. She was blown away. It's not always the LOA that makes a difference it's the how well the design was for the purpose. My neighbors often remarked I had more interior room and storage than most 50's at the time.

They handle well in a following sea and I enjoyed it. Now, I enjoy my Catamaran.

[Tayana42]

Jammer, I love my Tayana 42 double ender. I think she looks the way a boat should look, strong, purposeful, balanced and streamlined from every angle. And she looks “traditional” which I like.

She handle following seas very well but so do other boats I’ve sailed which had conservative transom sterns. When healed she doesn’t tend to round up the way boats with very wide sterns do.

There is less volume in the extreme aft end which means no appreciable aft deck. The cockpit is large enough and storage in the hull and aft stateroom are just fine and don’t seem pinched at all. A disadvantage is the difficulty in arranging davits or an arch for solar. I opted for an air floor inflatable dinghy so it is easy to haul onto the foredeck using a harness and halyard rather than davits.

I use a ladder amidships to board and to bring people, supplies etc aboard. It is safer there than an aft platform when the boat raises and falls in a swell.

All that said, I’m not advocating for double enders. The advantage is mostly aesthetic and only if you like the way they look. The disadvantages are minimal but a good solar arch would be great. In flat conditions a sugar scoop stern would be easier boarding from a dinghy.