double-enders... anchor "backwards"?

[anotherT34C]

Ok, stupid question maybe... but my primary cruising grounds are a large bay with little swell, but with frequent chop. The v-berth is sometimes too bouncy for sleep, compared to the aft quarterberth, which tends to be much less so.

I'm wondering if double-enders often anchor backwards, to better enjoy the v-berth while hooked. I never see any aft windlass, and any aft stationed anchors seem to be small kedgers only.

I've never even been on a double-ender, so I have no idea how they are.

[David M]

I don't see why not. If the wind and current is down you can always walk the rode to the stern and secure it there, provided its not chain which might mar your paint or gelcoat. There is no reason you cant anchor any boat from the stern as long as the seas are down.

[imagine2frolic]

What about pressure on the rudder when anchored from the stern?

[rtbates]

It ain't what you don't know that'll kill you, it's what you know that is wrong that'll kill you.

go have a read..

Jordan Series Drogue - Mooring and Anchoring

I've tried it in 25+ and it does work...

[imagine2frolic]

rtbates,

Nice read, but I still find it hard to believe there is no pressure on the rudder. My question for you is what depth were you anchored, what kind of waves, and I see your stern is kind of flat.

I have always been under the impression that rudder failure was a problem when the boat is moving backwards in storms. 25kts+ is a pretty good wind. This just fascinates me. Looking forward to reading your next post....thanks

[Hampus]

Hello!

I own a double ender, 31 feet weighing 6 metric tons with a full keel. The bow is quite light compared to the stern as the keel starts just a little bit in front of the middle of the hull and runs all the way back. The full weight of the keel /2.6 tons) is placed just under the area of the cockpit, galley and aft bunk. The v-berth is uncomfortable as soon as there is any kind of waves. The aft bunk is where you have the least movement in any waether. She rides a lot better anchored with a stern anchor, but the rudder takes a beating as it's placed on the outside of the hull, thus I never anchor that way. A rudder placed on the inside wouldn't be affected as much. When anchored with a bow anchor, the boat sways a lot because the bow is too light and wants to drift off. The fact that it's a double ender has nothing to do with it though. It's all in the construction of the hull and more importantly the keel. A fin keeled double ender would behave as a fin keeled boat with flat stern and the other way around.

Here's a drawing of the boat

[rtbates]

Originally Posted by imagine2frolic

rtbates,

Nice read, but I still find it hard to believe there is no pressure on the rudder. My question for you is what depth were you anchored, what kind of waves, and I see your stern is kind of flat.

I have always been under the impression that rudder failure was a problem when the boat is moving backwards in storms. 25kts+ is a pretty good wind. This just fascinates me. Looking forward to reading your next post....thanks

Depth was 18-20 feet.

I believe that's pretty much everyones initial response, 'hard to believe'.
The waves weren't much, maybe 1' or so. What I found so amassing was how consistantly our 25D remained pointed into the wind. Anchored by the bow we would have been sailing back and forth to beat the band. Yes, moving backwards is not good on the rudder. BUT, during the height of the storm I un-tied my tiller and expected to feal it wanting to tear out of my hands. Not so. I do have a full keel/attached rudder if that makes any difference. I tried stern anchoring after reading Jordan's article and was very interested as my Cape Dory loves to sail at anchor with a good wind. I found stern anchoring much easier and settled than deploying our anchor riding sail. since my anchor is hung on a bow roller I set it as usual, and if the wind isn't too strong I simply walk the line aft and tie off. This time it was blowing hard so I tied off the bow as usual and then took the rode from the anchor locker aft(outside everyting of course) and tied it off. I then waited till we had the wind off the same side as the rode and cast off the bow letting it run and we spun and hung from the stern with a jerk. I didn't try to make us sit square to the wind. since we were attached by the starboard stern cleat only we sat at a slight angle without hardly any side to side movement except when the wind would veer. It made a believer out of me in about 10 minutes.

[roverhi]

For Hampus, your ballast is actually spread out a few feet mostly aft of the mast. There is no ballast under the cockpit. It begins to taper off at the galley down to nothing at the aft galley bulkhead. I'm basing this looking at your line drawing.

There have been a number of people advocate anchoring by the stern, irregardless of the stern shape. There are valid reasons for this but most boats aren't set up to do it properly. In an anchorage, rudder forces are minimal and not a problem.

It's not the waves but the force of the propelled backward by a large wave that causes the problem. Boats that lie to a bow drogue during a severe storm are severely at risk. Damage comes when the boat is thrown backwards by large waves. The whole weight of the boat can be taken by the rudder. If the rudder is faired to the direction the hull is moving, no damage will happen. Unfortunately, if the rudder is only slightly out of line, the wheel/tiller can be forcefully ripped out of the hands of the helmsman and the rudder slam hard over. The rudder may survive a couple of these insults but continued abuse may severly damage the rudder. IIRC Adlard Coles talks about just such an incidence to a large sailboat in the Tasman Race.

Aloha
Peter O.

[Amgine]

Does Seraph really tack around that much? I've anchored in quite a number of locations, and even when it was blowing 30+ it was fairly quiet except when there was a current. (Our boat is also a CD 25D.)

One concern for me in stern anchoring is waves. When you tried out the stern anchoring in heavier weather did you have waves hitting the transom? Did the anchor tend to hold the boat down by the stern? What was your scope at the time?

One thing which was on the plans for this summer was testing out a couple of ideas to keep the boat even quieter. The first experiment was to put a 5 gal. bucket with a few rocks and a few holes off the bow and a few feet below the surface. The idea is to reduce the effects of chop and increase the effect of current. The other is to figure out a riding sail on the backstay. Haven't gotten around to them yet though...

[Hampus]

Roverhi, yes, you are right ofcaurse. You can even see the ballast on the line drawing. Just under the sprayhood is where there is least motion in the boat. I always tie the tiller down whenever I'm anchored or moored, or it just bangs back and forth, even in really small waves. No force to speak about though.

[Joli]

That would be my worry.............

Originally Posted by imagine2frolic

What about pressure on the rudder when anchored from the stern?

[imagine2frolic]

Just backing my Columbia into the slip would add a lot of pressure to the rudder. Figure I am doing 2-4 knots while backing up. If I had the tiller mid-ship no problem, but once the rudder was off to either side it was a handful.

25knts+ wind has to be producing waves moving at some speed? I am not throwing doubt into your words. It is just that I am amazed there is no pressure on the rudder. Seeing is believing, and as you said. You yourself have accomplished this. I'd like to think I am not too old to learn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Talbot]

There seems to be some considerable misunderstanding of the nature of waves, and wind action on a rudder when the boat is at anchor.

I suggest more empirical observation before this misunderstanding kills you.

The main element of pressure on a rudder will be from the tide, wind will have very little impact. If the tide is strong, anchoring from the stern can be a mistake, as it will put a lot of pressure on the rudderonce it get more than a few degrees from straight.

Tide moves the water

Wind can move water, but very slowly - sufficient to hold up a tide though

wind cannot move water sufficiently hard to put any pressure on a rudder, unless the boat is no longer attached to the bottom.

waves move over the water, but do not really move the water themselves, attach a fender to a bucket (normal man overboard exercise) and carefully watch what happens to it as the waves go past it.