Down to 4 Boats...Please Help Me Decide...

[Wild_At_Heart]

Looked at a Morgan, CSY, and Endeavour 37 today. Here's my observations overall...

CSY 44 - Too big and the freeboard is too high for visibility while single-handing. Need a spotter. It's off the list. Solid boat though.

Morgan OI 41 - Solid boat as well. Feels like a barge, but lower freeboard presents good visibility. Engine room access is great.

Endeavour 37 - Well thought out design. A step down in solidness, but much more manageable for single-handing.


Just need to find an Endeavour 40 to peruse now. Thanks to all that have responded thus far. Very helpful!

[SailingHarmonie]

Take very seriously comments about sailing characteristics of the various boats you are looking at.

Objective reports on sailing performance are EXTREMELY hard to come by. Most people have never really sailing anything except the boat that they own, so really do not have a good reference for comparison.

Here is one of the comments to watch for that should raise some really big red flags:

"Sails well, except hard on the wind."

Well... a barge can sail downwind. None of us LIKE to sail upwind, but if you have a boat that can't, you will be unhappy if you actually want to get places. At least one of the boats on your final list has a reputation as a dog upwind. I haven't sailed one myself, so I can't point fingers...

[Windpilot]

If you're set on those boats, go for it, I'm not going to change your mind. But, for real world sailing I wouldn't want any of those boats.
One rarely sees those boats out there and I just completed a 5100 NM transpac singlehanded.
A modern, fast sloop, preferably cutter rigged, furling and all lines led aft to the cockpit which has self tailing winches is a must for ease and safety.
Not saying it can't be done and more power to you for taking on the project but will you be happy sailing with a old heavy lumbering ketch? The wind doesn't always blow 20 knots, will it move in 10 knots?

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Wild_At_Heart

Looked at a Morgan, CSY, and Endeavour 37 today. Here's my observations overall...

CSY 44 - Too big and the freeboard is too high for visibility while single-handing. Need a spotter. It's off the list. Solid boat though.

Morgan OI 41 - Solid boat as well. Feels like a barge, but lower freeboard presents good visibility. Engine room access is great.

Endeavour 37 - Well thought out design. A step down in solidness, but much more manageable for single-handing.


Just need to find an Endeavour 40 to peruse now. Thanks to all that have responded thus far. Very helpful!

How does a high freeboard restrict visibility? Can't you see further from higher up?
The Morgan OIs do not have a reputation as good sailers. CSYs I understood were designed as charter boats, and those usually optimize inside space and layout over sailing properties, and lots of interior features that are comfortable at anchor are inconvenient at sea.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Wild_At_Heart

First time poster. I've narrowed my list to purchase a bluewater ketch gunkholer. Please help me weigh the pros and cons of each...


CSY 44 Ketch
Endeavour 40 Ketch
Morgan Out Island 41 Ketch
Endeavour 37 Ketch


My eyes and brain are tired of weighing the pros and cons of each of these myself. I'll likely be single-handing and will be updating the boat for ocean-crossing (new sails, beefier standing rigging, etc.).

Why a ketch? It's an obsolete rig that had its day. With modern sail materials and sail handling equipment, a ketch no longer makes sense. These are all older boats and finding one in good condition will be problematic.


Aside from that, the answer to your question is that age and condition of any specific vessel of interest is going to matter more than which make and model.


Another Fact to Consider is that if you're by yourself anything over 37 feet is overkill.

[Wild_At_Heart]

Originally Posted by Windpilot

If you're set on those boats, go for it, I'm not going to change your mind. But, for real world sailing I wouldn't want any of those boats.
One rarely sees those boats out there and I just completed a 5100 NM transpac singlehanded.
A modern, fast sloop, preferably cutter rigged, furling and all lines led aft to the cockpit which has self tailing winches is a must for ease and safety.
Not saying it can't be done and more power to you for taking on the project but will you be happy sailing with a old heavy lumbering ketch? The wind doesn't always blow 20 knots, will it move in 10 knots?

Different strokes for different folks. I'm prioritizing safety over speed. This includes motion comfort, hull strength and redundancy. Lead-sled ketch rigs fit the bill for me. A lot of variability in the ketch sail plan (jib an jigger, mizzen staysail in light winds).

I have considered some swing keeled boats as well for better pointing. I may have to reconsider these given the comments, but they also have their downsides. A Beneteau Evasion 37 would be a good example of what I'd consider in that direction given my budget.

[Wild_At_Heart]

Originally Posted by Benz

How does a high freeboard restrict visibility? Can't you see further from higher up?
The Morgan OIs do not have a reputation as good sailers. CSYs I understood were designed as charter boats, and those usually optimize inside space and layout over sailing properties, and lots of interior features that are comfortable at anchor are inconvenient at sea.

The angles of visibility forward of the bow are not very good in the CSY as compared to other boats I've been on. The CSYs were designed for chartering, but as such, they have a PHRF rating of 132 which is considerably faster than similar cruisers/gunkholers.

[Wild_At_Heart]

BTW My budget is under $70,000. All the boats I'm looking at can be found for that (sans the CSY) fully-to-mostly provisioned for that price.

[Bellinghamster]

I fully refit and crossed the Pacific on a CSY44 (cutter rigged sloop) so may be a bit biased . I had wife and 2 little (4 and 6) kids on board so single handed most of the time, but did have someone to help if/when I needed it (like to change headsails). Truely single-handing, 44ft will be a handfull.

Crossed San Francisco bay on a beam reach doing steady 10.5kn with full main, 140% genoa and staysail (ok, we were a BIT overpowered and could pretty much keep up with catamarans in the Pacific, so not a slouch when the wind is up, but was a bit sluggish in <10kn wind. A code 0 and/or asym spinnaker would have helped a lot. Staysail and reefed main was fine in >50kn. We only reefed the main a couple of times. In squalls we just fell off and rode them out. I'd bet just about anything it would outperform and outlast a Morgan O/I 4

CSY was tough. There was an article around (Cruising World) reviewing them that told of a hurricane that put the charter fleet ashore in the mangroves. They pushed the CSY out with a bulldozer and it was on charter the next week. Only laminate core is in the deck hatches. Everything else is solid laminate so no rotten core to worry about. No cabintop liner so any leaks are easy to find and re-bed (but not great for cold weather). Well balanced, easy to steer and easy to set up with a Monitor windvane - we sailed for days without touching anything. HUGE cockpit for fun parties. We only got splashed in the cockpit twice in 10,000 miles. Never buried the bow, a very dry boat. Visibilty was never a problem, and side deck was low enough I could kip up out of the water (with fins on), but usually climbed up the windvane to get on board. Engine can be lifted through hatches in the cockpit floor. Rigging is plenty stout, so no need to "oversize", although recommend replacing chainplates if it hasn't been done. Only structural issues found were crevice corrosion in chainplates, stanchion and boom gallow bases, and aluminum fuel tank had corrosion pits where it sat on stainless staples holding the rubber pad in place. 400gal of fresh water in 2 integral fiberglass tanks (one each side of engine room, so can use for water ballast if you're going to be on one tack for awhile, and easy rain catchment by plugging the midship hawsholes and flooding the side decks, 12v bilge pump and a hose and you can fill your water tanks in a squall. Fantastic ventilation if you're going somewhere hot. I wish I still had it! I had a website and blog way back then (~2004) that I recently re-jiggered and put online again: Imagine Cruising You can read about he refit, the boat and the adventure. I'm happy to answer any questions. Another good site is https://www.svsoggypaws.com/CSY/AboutCSYBoats.htm

A ketch under 40-42ft would be VERY cluttered. We have a ketch now (1978 Gulfstar 50), and I rather miss the "simplicity" of the cutter/sloop. Sure you can adjust balance with the mizzen, but we never felt the need to on the CSY. It is nice to fly "jib and jigger" (no main) in heavy conditions and the mizzen is very easy to manage, but adds a lot of windage and rigging, gets in the way of a solar arch and windvane and adds a lot of clutter to moving around on the deck. If I get to do it again (not sure there's going to be a "next" sailboat), I'd go back to a cutter for sure.

When shopping for our current boat I looked at an Endeavour (48? 51?) and wasn't impressed with the build quality. It just felt cheap and light. They ARE light , and the mast step design and construction was an abomination. They have nice lines and a decent layout - I wanted to like it, but no.

[Wild_At_Heart]

Originally Posted by Wild_At_Heart

Different strokes for different folks. I'm prioritizing safety over speed. This includes motion comfort, hull strength and redundancy. Lead-sled ketch rigs fit the bill for me. A lot of variability in the ketch sail plan (jib an jigger, mizzen staysail in light winds).

I have considered some swing keeled boats as well for better pointing. I may have to reconsider these given the comments, but they also have their downsides. A Beneteau Evasion 37 would be a good example of what I'd consider in that direction given my budget.

A Pearson 40 looks like it would fit the bill. How big of a pain in the ass are swing keels to maintain though?

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Why a ketch? It's an obsolete rig that had its day. With modern sail materials and sail handling equipment, a ketch no longer makes sense. These are all older boats and finding one in good condition will be problematic.

Another Fact to Consider is that if you're by yourself anything over 37 feet is overkill.

Two very good points. Shame the list doesn't include some of the excellent European yachts with deep fin keels.

Pete

[AiniA]

I don't think I would choose any of these boats. Have you considered any of the Ted Hood designed centreboarders? Or a Wauquiez or older Amel? These are serious cruising boats. In our experience, tens of thousands of miles offshore, you see an incredible range of boats in obscure places, but that does not mean people have made the best choice.

You mention seeing three boats in one day. Were these all local? You have to be prepared to go where the boats are after. When we were looking for a boat for live aboard/circumnavigation (from Toronto) we looked at boats from Maine to the Chesapeake. There just were no suitable boats on Lake Ontario or nearby lakes. We found our boat in Rhode Island.

One thing to consider when redoing standing rigging, beef up the aft lowers. When we crossed the Indian Ocean to South Africa from Indonesia we had an aft lower wire break. This after three weeks of delightful sailing broad-reaching in 25-35 knots (and crossing the Pacific downwind). The rigger said the aft lowers take a huge load in such winds and should be at least as large as cap shrouds.

Also, with your budget and for singlehanding I would be looking for something smaller and better. Two minutes on Yachtworld I came up with the boat below. Not suggesting you buy his particular boat, just an example of the kind of boat and distance shopping that can pay off.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Spartanacus

beefier standing rigging is not the best idea ... makes the boat a little more top heavy. Whatever size you have now is the proper size engineered for the boat.

Alas, not true.

Original rigging is designed as a compromise between cost and the demands of the expected area of use. Generally rigging is sized for coastal and protecteds water operation.

The only boat on that list I would expect to have rigging sized for offshore is the Morgan OI-41. It was originally designed for chartering (inexperienced crews overstressing the boat) in tradewind conditions (Caribbean with near constant 20kt winds.)

Yes, the heavier wire and rigging will increase top weight. There will be 2 results from that:
A. An increase in capsize resistance which is related to roll moment of inertia.
B. A decrease in stability which results in the boat heeling slightly more all the time and the need to reef in slightly less wind generally which together mean the boat is very slightly slower. An increase weight of wire and rigging will slow the boat down less than 0.1kt. The difference in speed would be measurable when averaged over several days but it would be hard to see the difference looking at a knotmeter.

A and B seem contradictory but stability and capsize resistance are different things in a technical sense and practically as well.

[Wild_At_Heart]

Here's a summary of the wisdom conveyed thus far...

-If you beef up the standing rigging/chainplates, have a naval architect look over your plans to make sure you don't overstress the boat.

-Beefing up the rigging makes a boat only marginally slower.

-Beef up the aft lowers as they bear quite a load.

-Make a list.

-Under 40' is best for singlehanding. Smaller is even better.

-Buy a boat on condition and available equipment.

-You'll be happier with a boat that can sail upwind.

-Cutter rigged sloop with all lines led aft and self-tailing winches are best.

-Ted Hood designed some boats that may work for my needs.

[Wild_At_Heart]

New Short List

C&C 40 CRUSADER C&C Design C&C Yachts
BRISTOL 3800 Ted Hood Bristol Yachts
BRISTOL 38.8 Ted Hood Bristol Yachts
BRISTOL 41.1 Ted Hood, Dieter Empacher Bristol Yachts
HOOD 38 (WAUQUIEZ) Ted Hood Henry Wauquiez (Chantier)
OCEAN CRUISING 40 Henry R. Hinckley Hinckley Yachts
SOVEREL 41
PEARSON 40 William Shaw Pearson Yachts


These are the boats in my price range. I also had a Stevens 40, but that's well out of my price range.

I can sacrifice the Ketch rig and get wind vane steering for backup steering/piloting.