Dumb or screwed or both??

[Happ]

Originally Posted by Keithward

I am under contract
In the time from 1 st viewing to
actually signing I asked and received
Repeated assurances that I could come
back aboard and dig out all bilges and
storage areas and do my own inspection
Prior to survey to be able to make note of
Areas of concern or to ask questions about
potential issues. Two short days was ok by broker
We signed, this request was not in the contract.

Then couple weeks passes working to set
dates for said personal inspection
Broker states not possible without owner present.
I think great to get questions answered.
Only time avail for owners is two days before
Sea-trial and survey. I’d like more time to mull
But ok. Now a week before survey owner does
not want to do any inspections before survey.
Stating thru broker that they will spend several
days if we want after we accept the boat from
survey. Good part is boat comes with a tone
of extras. Bad part nothing is accessible I don’t
see being able to tear this boat apart for
survey and get it done right. After I accept the
survey I am locked in. Wife is inclined to let it ride
I have just seen majors missed by “good” surveyors ?????
I love the forum
Thanks in advance

You can walk at anytime. The lazy broker should be there to assist you in doing your inspection if the owner is unavailable. I would immediately question why they don't want you to inspect the boat? You said the boat comes with a ton of things. So what is on the boat that the owner can't take off before you inspect the boat? Is the owner afraid you will remove things that aren't in the deal?

I would simply tell the broker you are going to inspect the boat on the day or days you want to do it and if the owner is not available then he needs to be there. If that is not acceptable I would walk.

[CaptJPMcGuire]

You have bad vibes on this deal.
Walk away if there is any difficulty accessing the entire.vessel and you are uncertain of its condition and safety
In court telling the judge they wouldn’t let you look at it before buying it would be a mo brainer. I doubt your broker wants a court battle for the sellers deposit.

[SheltieJim]

I've owned one of my two sailboats for 15 years and have had one purchase survey and five insurance surveys done. The first four surveys were done by licensed and recommended surveyors, but every one of them was (IMHO) pretty much an idiot. On my fourth insurance survey, I managed to choose a truly useful surveyor and I used him on my fifth as well. I intend to continue using the same guy in future. He actually finds real problems (as opposed to imaginary ones that the other surveyors found, while missing real ones) and advises on how urgent, how expensive, etc. he thinks they really are.



I tried to shadow the purchase survey, but managed to miss the surveyor lifting (and locking) the companionway stairs, so he "did his thing" with the owner present but without me! Never again. I demand to do the entire survey with the surveyor and insist that anything they claim to be "inaccessible" be made accessible so it can be inspected. A good surveyor will want the buyer to be present.

[svmariane]

Originally Posted by Keithward

... and received repeated assurances that I could come back aboard and dig out all bilges and storage areas and do my own nspection ...

Your money; his boat. If the two of you cannot come to an amicable agreement acceptable to both then walk away.

Seriously, you're not talking about some one-of-a-kind historicaly significant vessel or a rare "In Bristol Shape" beauty, are you? Of course not. There are tens of thousands of boats on the market. Better to spend some cash on travel expenses to find what's right FOR YOU than end up with repeated (and sometimes unexpected) time up on the hard for repairs/rebuild/retrofit/patching/and what-have-you.

[Scotty Kiwi]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I am a surveyor, not a boat gear mover. I have actually walked away from surveys where I could barely get inside the boat. I have been expected to remove dinghies and outboard motors from lazarettes. I have expected to remove three couches, two coffee tables and carpeting to get into an engine room. If I dammage sole varnish by removing screws to gain access to a bilge I will be taken to small claims court forthe cost of re-varnishing.

I was actually sued for $600 for cutting a 6" hole in shrink wrap to get at the HIN number. The owner was PO'd that the deal fell through and sued for new shrink that would come off a week later. The judge looked at me and said " Wallace the man is an idiot but my hands are tied, you did cut his wrap".

It is critical that all areas of the boat be accessible to the surveyor. Look at a few shots at the bottom of this article to see what I'm up against.
Preparing for a Marine Survey

Also take a look at this one to see some of the things I never would have found without complete access to bilges.
Marine Survey 101, pre-survey inspection

Damn that "101" is impressive, Pokey. Very impressive. This praise coming from an experienced layman - but .... wow. Well done. I hope you don't mind, I have saved it on file to use during my next purchase, which might be assessment of a new build/new design, and contact you if it is in your region.

PS - I'll take the liberty of adding your copyright.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Scotty Kiwi

Damn that "101" is impressive, Pokey. Very impressive. This praise coming from an experienced layman - but .... wow. Well done. I hope you don't mind, I have saved it on file to use during my next purchase, which might be assessment of a new build/new design, and contact you if it is in your region.

PS - I'll take the liberty of adding your copyright.

Thank you. Help yourself, thats what it is there for.

[psk125]

Fascinating. More than 50 posts over the space of about a week and from the original poster... silence. He laments not being able to spend days inspecting a vessel that he's going to have surveyed imminently. But has no time to provide details that might help contributors help him, like what kind of boat it is. A Hinckley Sou'west 42 might get different online suggestions than a Bruce Roberts homebuilt steel cruiser. Knowing where the boat is might enable contributors to advise on surveyors in that area. Will we ever know what the survey uncovers? There is always something in any survey that can be cause for walking away from the deal. The galley counters are the wrong color. The halyards aren't clear. There's an oil stain in the bilge!!! No curtains on the port lights. Sounds like the OP may no longer actually want this boat and could have saved himself the cost of a survey if he'd been less eager to sign the contract and done his own inspections first. Now he has to pay for the survey in order to get out of the deal. Maybe he can participate in the discussion. Otherwise, is there a point to this thread?

[Keithward]

My apologies
I sort of thought the inquiry and the responses appeal more to the concept then to the specifics.
It was more about learning the conventions and whether it was reasonable or not to actually be able to pull out and view everything hidden behind all of the extras.
As it ended up there were severe misrepresentations. Standing rigging that was represented as new was actually original to the boat. Items that were represented as being included and it up being taken off the boat from the time it was first seen till the time we were going back for the survey. Solid deck that was actually cored that sounded off to begin with but still represented that way.
I’m actually contemplating going after the broker. some of The representations published some of them not published to recover my costs. I’ll probably just let it go but damn what a bummer.
It was a northern kept 422 Pearson in about 80% condition.
They were asking a premium but came down about 20% and we were close but the lack of transparency by the broker and seller were the biggest problem.
I will go back and try to respond to his many posts as possible and I am very grateful thank you all.

[Keithward]

Originally Posted by thinwater

The surveyor works for you.



He can request that ALL of the lockers must be emptied. Perfectly reasonable.



There doesn't have to be a huge rush to approve the survey. In fact, I'm sure you could tell the surveyor you do not want to see his report for X days.

The surveyor Great guy Ian Morris in Fort Pierce requested that we do the rigging survey first and we did. The rigging survey failed terribly I feel kind of silly. it was represented that the standing rigging was all brand new in the last three years and I didn’t look I’m an idiot. anyway paid for the rigging inspection and it was most likely original to the boat 1986.
thank you very much for your input.

[Keithward]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Can we start a new thread? Without emptying the lockers, lots. Even so, lots. Boats are complex. I've never seen a survey that didn't miss important things, and that is not a criticism. It's tough work.

Yes, I would be there to help the surveyor, since that is too much to ask. I've done this. But I would be moving things under his direction, so that it was part of the survey.

Never actually met the surveyor Ian Morris of ft pierce but spoke to him several times on the phone at length very thorough asked a lot of questions
was basically insistent that I be there to help open things and move things so that he could see everything
asked that the rigging inspection be done first actually in an effort to look out for my interest so for all of that I am extremely grateful unfortunately the boat failed the rigging inspection miserably.

Thanks greatly for your input

[LauraleeG]

So surveyors dont mind if the potential buyer is there when they are doing the survey? I know I will ask a million questions.. Generally speaking, they dont mind?

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by LauraleeG

So surveyors dont mind if the potential buyer is there when they are doing the survey? I know I will ask a million questions.. Generally speaking, they dont mind?

It's in your best interests to be there. Just don't bring your kids, your dog or your neighbour that knows everything about boats.

[psk125]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

It's in your best interests to be there. Just don't bring your kids, your dog or your neighbour that knows everything about boats.

Absolutely! You're paying him, so it's your dime! Get the best ROI you can and see what you can learn from him by asking as many questions as possible. If he doesn't like questions, why is he looking at old boats for you?

[boatpoker]

Here are a page to check out ....
All about marine surveys and checklists

[Keithward]

We walked broke my heart I could’ve been a nice boat actually probably is a nice boat the problem is the seller in the broker deceptive or at least sorely misinformed The problem is the broker and the owner were at best sorely miss in formed if not deceptive.
If you seen the movie “it’s a beautiful mind” aside from the main character being a complete whack a doodle he went on to be awarded the Nobel prize for proving mathematically that goodwill and honesty in transactions really is the best for everyone. Oh well another boat another day thanks for all your help.