Ethics of negotiation

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by passage_paul

I have seen many folks suggest offering 50% less than asking as a starting point..

soldboatprice.com
tracks initial asking prices vs. actual sold prices. The vast majority sold for around the 30% less than asking amount. A few of them for 50% less than asking.

Value is such a subjective thing and is never indicative of actual costs. A pair of nike shoes made for 5 bux being sold for 200 is NOT a fair deal to me.. but clearly there are folks who pay.. so they target those low iq consumers.

When I am ready to put in an offer.. I for sure will be taking into account how long the boat has been sitting rotting away or slowly bleeding the owner with moorage fees. Buyers are looking for a desperate seller.... Sellers are looking for a desperate buyer...

It is like a pawn shop... your tv may have cost 1000.$... but I will give you 100. Will you accept?..How badly do you need the 100 bux?

Desire vs lack of desire is how the entire economy is based..nothing is ever fair trade. Why do you think all wealthy companies outsource to poor countries.

Start low.. if they don't want that price work your way up. You will be much more upset if you buy something only to find out later you got suckered. If they are insulted and refuse to counter then move on....they can sit around and wait for a different buyer, continuing to pay moorage while their boat slowly rots away.. but never ever seem over eager.. ever.. no matter how many boxes it ticks off.... play it cool man play it cool.

MOST people over estimate things they own.. tangible and intangible.. thats probably the biggest problem in society.. how many asshats do you know that think they are the smartest..or their degree is the best.. or they are the best lover... or they are the bestest most educated sailor on Cruiserforums?.... I have been in more than one home or car where the owner was adamant that it is the best...one mans garbage is another mans??

I'd be stunned if this is a successful strategy to get anything other than a distress sale, or perhaps an estate sale. If that's what you're looking for, great. Quality boats? Maybe in a blue moon.

[Mike OReilly]

Don't play games. Don't think you know more about the right price than the seller. Just offer what you think the boat is worth. What is it worth To You? That's your price.


If your valuation is significantly below the ask, then either move on, or make the offer knowing you may piss the seller off.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by pjbori

Hi sailors!

I'm looking at buying a 1977 cruiser in a relatively decent condition, selling under 13000 euros. Apart from obvious negotiation points due to stuff that needs fixing, what is the common practice in making a bid? I read somewhere that it's perfectly acceptable to go 30% below the asking price as a first bid, but that seems like a stretch as I wouldn't want to 'alienate' the seller either.

What's your experience?
Cheers!

Ethics? Its the sellers boat - they can ask whatever they want, your the buyer, you can offer whatever you want. I don't get upset if someone makes a stupidly offer, I just tell them to go away. What amazes me is these - I only offer 66% idiots, some without looking at the boat, the next boat a sell I willm advertise at 1Mill when I really only want 500K and let people get a bargain beating all the way down to 600K

Just offer a fair price and make your first offer the best one.

[GoneDiving]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

I'd be stunned if this is a successful strategy to get anything other than a distress sale, or perhaps an estate sale. If that's what you're looking for, great. Quality boats? Maybe in a blue moon.

Depends where the transaction is taking place. I have seen many times where the Fresh Off The Boat Tourist Price is 10x Local. No one is offended when the reply Bid is 10% of the Offer.

I'd agree that any bid should be based upon what ever you are prepared to pay

Just be aware of market dynamics wherever you are.

[passage_paul]

howdy Weebles...I am no broker.but there are far more boats on the market than buyers and many of those boats have been languishing..hoping for someone to get them back out cruising.... as Mike states below "what is it worth to you"...the very core of ALL things economic.

While I hear more often than not to start at 50% less that is just a rough suggestion and like everything in the world is never set in stone...there are many reasons a person is selling..but at the end of day..for whatever reason.. distress sale.. estate.. health..gambling debts....but whatever the reason.. they want to get rid of it..so their balls are already in a vice..its just up to the buyer how much he wants to put the crank on em....maybe one more twist

Of course buying from some schmancy builder, brokerage is a different story..you know the ones who have the motto "if you have to ask you cant afford it"

I posted a Westsail on here that I thought was very nice.. at 59k.... and nearly everyone suggested going far lower.. even as low as 35k.. so nearly 40% less.

I would do alot of comparatives.. and expect the seller to justify his outlier.

People get pissed off anytime they don't get what they want.. and for me, I don't mind that someone was pissed at my offer.. I would be realistic about an offer and give my reasons why..but don't expect me to value you and yours the same you do...I do not pay for sentimentality.

It reminds me of the ugly baby where the parent thinks it should be the poster child for gerber.
It is a buyers market...next...

[GoneDiving]

Originally Posted by passage_paul

Value is such a subjective thing and is never indicative of actual costs. A pair of nike shoes made for 5 bux being sold for 200 is NOT a fair deal to me.. but clearly there are folks who pay.. so they target those low iq consumers.

This is very true once we include trends or how appealing a boat model is

Try paying a "fair" price for a 5 yo 47ft catamaran now. Or receive a "fair" price for an older, out of favour mono hull. For both of these 30% may be readily available as a seller and buyer premium respectively

Good luck.

[Chotu]

Correct pricing (both asking AND selling) has absolutely nothing to do with percentage of asking price.

The only thing that sets the value of a boat is what other boats are selling for. That's it. So best figure that out now matter if you're a buyer or a seller.

A fairly priced boat maybe just under the normal selling price will have plenty of interest and nice quickly. You can tell low ballers to get lost too in that case. If it's a fair price, you, as a buyer should also be happy you found a good boat for a good price.

[denverd0n]

The problem is that some sellers price their boat fairly, but there are a whole lot of them out there that expect way more than a fair market price. I have seen boats where, if I offered half of the asking price, I would still feel like I was probably paying too much! And, if you watch Yachtworld or Boattrader, you often see boats sit for year after year, with the price slowly coming down, until it ends up at half or less than the original asking price.


That's why everyone is saying, forget about some magic percentage. Forget about what the seller is asking. Judge for yourself what you think the boat is worth to you, and offer something in that neighborhood. If the seller is offended, well, that's his problem. This is a simple business negotiation, and getting emotional about it is just foolish.

[WindwardPrinces]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

You've had some very good advise here but it's pretty hard to negotiate a fair price if your due diligence doesn't net you a comparable. If there are so few of these boats built it usually means deeper price discounts but I'd sure spend some time trying to find comparable. If you can you've put yourself in a position of pricing knowledge and you can make a fair offer and support your offer. As others have said nothing is ever gained with bad feelings over a sale, no matter the price. You want to walk away knowing you paid a reasonable ball park price and the seller should feel he received a fair offer. Either way, good luck on your purchase.

It may be that your comparables are similar boats with the same features if you're looking at a model that there aren't that many of.


It's sort of that way, anyway, for older boats as the condition is at least as important as the model.

[AKA-None]

And this is why I’ll continue to use my boat when I’m ready to sell

[passage_paul]

cruisersforum.com/forums/f152/tayana-v-42-aft-cockpit-209776.html

As you see this vessel was listed 11-5 2018 right here on CF for 90k
6 months later it is still listed but dropped to 80k. 3 months after on July 9th it drops to 75k. Another 5 months and it is at 70..a whole year and 23% less than asking.

Unfortunately the owner posted today the 17th of feb 2020 and the boat still hasn't sold..even tho several posters thought the initial 90k was a great deal.

I am sure the seller has listed in other venues in addition to CF.. over 2 years and the boat hasn't sold... and it is a nice one.. at least from the pics. Would 60k get it?.. Any wagers on final sell price and date?.... This is just an example and I am not in any way trying to "rub it in" to this seller.. I hope he can find someone soon to enjoy his boat.

Another..
cruisersforum.com/forums/f152/cooper-415-pilothouse-203570.html

Listed on CF June 30, 2018 for 59k.

cruisersforum.com/forums/f152/cooper-415-price-massively-reduced-230324.html
Then on Feb 14 2020 dropping to 37k a year and half later.
And then today now at 32k. nearly 2 years and 46% below original asking!

Again I am not making light of either of these sellers and it is just an example.

I hope both find a buyer soon and I am especially sorry that Welscrisby is motivated to sell due to health issues. I wish him/her a speedy recovery for what ails them.

[Mike OReilly]

My sense is that the market for used boats -- especially older, more traditional ones -- has really taken a nose dive in recent years. I blame basic economics and demographics.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

My sense is that the market for used boats -- especially older, more traditional ones -- has really taken a nose dive in recent years. I blame basic economics and demographics.

I agree with this. Before the 2008 recession, well-maintained boats seemed to more or less hold their value (minus commission,upgrades and updates). E.g. buy a boat for $150k, keep it for 5-years and keep it in decent shape and update the electronics, etc., it would sell for striking-distance of $150k. Recession turned that upside down - witness the post a couple before this about boats on CF for sale for years with severed discounts. Different world.

That said, I still stand by my observation that making a respectful offer will reap more benefits than low-balling. Back to the post a couple up, I doubt the seller would have accepted the low-offer. It takes some sellers time to adapt to market ---- some chase a market down for years. Happens in real estate too.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

...That said, I still stand by my observation that making a respectful offer will reap more benefits than low-balling. Back to the post a couple up, I doubt the seller would have accepted the low-offer. It takes some sellers time to adapt to market ---- some chase a market down for years. Happens in real estate too.

Completely agree. That's why I say offer what the boat is worth to you. Don't try and play games with the seller. Don't pretend to know more about what the price should be. Know what your price is. If your valuation is significantly below the asking price, then move on, or make the offer knowing full well you may piss off the seller and may (likely) close down any possible negotiations.

Despite what some say (and I assume do), boat buying is almost never devoid of emotion. People buy boats they like. And people like, or even love, the boats they own. Few of us can be simple, cold financial calculators in this transaction. This is where brokers can be useful (or not ).

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

My sense is that the market for used boats -- especially older, more traditional ones -- has really taken a nose dive in recent years. I blame basic economics and demographics.

There are fewer people in the market buying, tastes have changed (competing with catamarans), and the fact that it's pretty expensive to insure an aging boat in a hurricane zone or to find a place to keep it. All the marinas are full of other aging boats. It's also crazy expensive to update an aging boat, so it really needs to be in great shape.

So it's an expensive proposition all around, even for people with ample funds.

There are plenty of people with funds. I see them all the time driving their luxury cars and using their smart phones. I see plenty of people with new powerboats.