Ethics of negotiation

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

There are fewer people in the market buying, tastes have changed (competing with catamarans), and the fact that it's pretty expensive to insure an aging boat in a hurricane zone or to find a place to keep it. All the marinas are full of other aging boats. It's also crazy expensive to update an aging boat, so it really needs to be in great shape.

So it's an expensive proposition all around, even for people with ample funds.

There are plenty of people with funds. I see them all the time driving their luxury cars and using their smart phones. I see plenty of people with new powerboats.

True... but the cars are leased and phones are still relatively cheap toys. The real growth market in boats are smaller powerboats, which again aren't all that expensive, and cheaper to own. Even the larger ones aren't selling at the same level as the past (although far outstripping sail).

[austinsailor]

I've bought and sold cars, trucks boats and land. I always want both of us to be happy with the deal or I don't do it. Offer what you feel it is worth to you and a fair price. Do your homework. Explain why it is worth what it is to you. If you are not comfortable - or he isn't - walk away. I've never had a completed deal I felt bad about, and became and remain friends many years later with many of the people I've dealt with. Makes life much easier and more comfortable.

[nestorph]

Originally Posted by pjbori

Hi sailors!

I'm looking at buying a 1977 cruiser in a relatively decent condition, selling under 13000 euros. Apart from obvious negotiation points due to stuff that needs fixing, what is the common practice in making a bid? I read somewhere that it's perfectly acceptable to go 30% below the asking price as a first bid, but that seems like a stretch as I wouldn't want to 'alienate' the seller either.

What's your experience?
Cheers!

There's a lot of great advice provided by others. My only comment: there is nothing unethical about starting with a low bid. You're simply negotiating and it's just as ethical to bid 90% below the asking price as it would be for you to offer 90% above the asking price! Just my two cents. Nothing to feel guilty about.

[RaggioVerde]

John Neal of Mahini Expedition Mahina Expeditions - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising
mentions 18%. His guide on choosing a boat is very good.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by austinsailor

I've bought and sold cars, trucks boats and land. I always want both of us to be happy with the deal or I don't do it. Offer what you feel it is worth to you and a fair price. Do your homework. Explain why it is worth what it is to you. If you are not comfortable - or he isn't - walk away. I've never had a completed deal I felt bad about, and became and remain friends many years later with many of the people I've dealt with. Makes life much easier and more comfortable.

Nicely put .

[JBsurfin]

Originally Posted by pjbori

Hi sailors!

I'm looking at buying a 1977 cruiser in a relatively decent condition, selling under 13000 euros. Apart from obvious negotiation points due to stuff that needs fixing, what is the common practice in making a bid? I read somewhere that it's perfectly acceptable to go 30% below the asking price as a first bid, but that seems like a stretch as I wouldn't want to 'alienate' the seller either.

What's your experience?
Cheers!

If you do the pricing research and get a full detail on whats coming with the boat, whats been replaced, and a positive survey, its not a "low ball" if you are offering what should be about fair market value. I've seen to many times owners think their vessel is worth well more than what the market bears. In any negotiations I've been in, you have to be willing to walk away. Good luck

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by JBsurfin

If you do the pricing research and get a full detail on whats coming with the boat, whats been replaced, and a positive survey, its not a "low ball" if you are offering what should be about fair market value. I've seen to many times owners think their vessel is worth well more than what the market bears. In any negotiations I've been in, you have to be willing to walk away. Good luck

Yes, research and market knowledge is key. If you're serious about a particular boat, then you should be able to justify your low offer with references to other boats, comparing condition, equipment, price. These should be external factors; it's presumptious and rude to mention factors under the owners' control, like how much it might be costing them to store and maintain the boat. All you're doing there is calling the owner a jerk.

If the owner makes a good case for why their boat should be worth more, now the rubber hits the road. You now have to decide whether the owners' case is made and you are prepared to pay more to get it... or whether you are prepared to wait it out to see if no other prospective buyer will beat your low offer... and you might lose that boat.

Of course some people will be absolute jerks about buying and selling, and for them the game is simply to see how much they can get for how little in return. Try to spot them early and shut them out. Saves a lot of grief.

[jrau18]

This is really a classic case of "it depends. " If they're using a good professional broker or are very experienced and unemotional, they'll have the boat priced close to the actual value. In that case, maybe open negotiations offering a bit below asking, then go from there.

But I've also seen boats listed that were somebody's dream boat, the broker never looked at it in person, sit on the market with a hull rusting away for 5 years while the price didnt move. My friend bought just such a boat, listed at 50k, he bought it for 4k. A year later and a lot of time and money to get it into shape, he isnt sure if he got a good deal or not.

Basically it boils down to ignore the asking price, offer what it is actually worth to you. If it's priced by a knowledgeable, unemotional person, it will probably be close to the asking price. If it was priced by somebody with no personal knowledge of the boat or somebody with little experience and an emotional attachment to the boat, it may be radically different.

[Kinpa_1951]

Hi, as you are talking in euros, i suppose you are based somewhere in Europe.
Just as a broad guidance to assessing a boat value, there is an interesting website at this link:

https://www.argusdubateau.fr/cote

You have only to fill in the fields and most of the times you get a decent bracket min/max. market value, if the boat is a commercially built boat.
It is just a starting point but it proved useful to me when trying to assess a value of boats built in a very limited number of units, with almost no comparison on the market.
The only drawback, it is in french.
Let me know if you need any help

[Mike OReilly]

Often part of the problem, or the reality, is that there are no functioning markets to determine the right price. Markets require items of similar type by bought and sold regularly, in a certain area, often at certain times.

The fact is, many used boats are essentially one-off sales, so it's difficult to rely on "the market" to determine the price. Absent of real market messages, we all make up our own stories about how and why something should be priced a certain way.

[Poche]

Originally Posted by pjbori

Hi sailors!


What's your experience?
Cheers!

My experience is do a lot of research and offer what you are comfortable with. So what if the seller is possibly offended. They tend to not care about your welfare.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by pjbori

Hi sailors!

I'm looking at buying a 1977 cruiser in a relatively decent condition, selling under 13000 euros. Apart from obvious negotiation points due to stuff that needs fixing, what is the common practice in making a bid? I read somewhere that it's perfectly acceptable to go 30% below the asking price as a first bid, but that seems like a stretch as I wouldn't want to 'alienate' the seller either.

What's your experience?
Cheers!

There is no formula, because there is no formula for pricing a boat. Some examples:


* I bought my first boat for half of asking price. Offered, accepted.
* I sold that boat for 8% below asking price a week after listing it. And would have come down another 5% at most. He got a good deal, because I was priced right (of note, I listed it for 250% what I paid for it -- over double! But didn't come close to what I put into it in blood and tears so, no, I didn't make a profit).

* I offered $5K on a boat that was listed at $30K. I am thankful to this day that they turned down my stupidly high offer!

* We offered 40% below asking price on a boat 18 months back, they turned us down. Our offered price is only 10% below the current list price.
* Our current boat we offered 25% below list, accepted without counter. But it is 40% below what it was listed at when we first saw it over 2 years earlier. And an essentially identical boat was just listed at 60% more than we paid for ours.


The problem is, sellers remember what they paid for it, and think it is still worth it. Buyers are hoping for something like market value, or maybe even a bit under. Sellers slowly drop the price until it gets to market value. A motivated seller prices it right to start with. If those discounts I mentioned above had been listed at what we settled at, a "always offer 30% low" wouldn't have worked. Look at the boat, look at the comps, look at what's needed, and offer what the boat is worth. A smart seller will sell it for what it is worth.

[ferrofan]

Originally Posted by pjbori

Hi sailors!

I'm looking at buying a 1977 cruiser in a relatively decent condition, selling under 13000 euros. Apart from obvious negotiation points due to stuff that needs fixing, what is the common practice in making a bid? I read somewhere that it's perfectly acceptable to go 30% below the asking price as a first bid, but that seems like a stretch as I wouldn't want to 'alienate' the seller either.

What's your experience?
Cheers!

Lots of sound reasoning noted already.
I would say it often depends on how realistic the owner is about selling. I've known lots of owners looking to sell their beloved boats for pretty much what they paid for it 20 years ago and are blinded by the wear and tear and general depreiation that it has seen over that period. One owner I know held out for 8 years to get 30k for a boat which he eventually sold for 20k after paying 16k in mooring costs.
Do as much research as you can into what the same make/model are advertised for look for boats that have sold and see if any of the brokers will give you a ball park for what they sold for - some will some wont. Be clear in your head what it should be worth in the condition it is in. Owners keen to sell because of escalating financial issues will generally be advertising at a fair price. Owners who are just thinking of selling will value their boats high with the mind set of 'if someone makes me an offer I can't refuse...'
Once you are clear in your head what you think it is worth. Go through the boat with a fine tooth comb as though you were the surveyor (don't fall in love with the boat or you'll be blinded to her faults). When you have done that if she still looks like a reasonable buy (or assuming you think you can get her for a reasonable price. Put an offer in for 20% less than you think she is worth (that could be considerably more than 20% less than what the owner thinks she is worth)- and accept subject to survey something around 10% less than what you think she is worth. Because with the best will in the world a 40 odd year old boat will have needs that will not necessarily be manifested straight away. Oh and get a really good surveyor ideally reomended by people you trust - The surveyor I got was useless - he missed so much stuff which ended up costing me dearly and half the survey report was just cut and pasted from old survey reports.
Don't fall in love with her untill she is yours - be prepared to walk away.

[rjhowe]

30 percent? go 50 to 75. Walk a marina and you will see over priced 70's sail boats that have sit there for years because seller loves the boat and all the memories. But a buyer is not buying those memories. They are buying a 40+ year old boat. Knowing that, it's first year maybe spent in a marina on the hard working on it. Now if it's decent and well cared for and sailed and taken out regularly. Then I think that asking for a big discount maybe a little insulting on a boat that is 13k. Give it a shot though. What is the worst he is going to say...No. so what/ If you like the boat and the seller actually wants to sell it then keep talking to him. We have sold our houses and there was always one offer that was stupid. We simply said no. However if they had come back with a better offer we would of reengaged the conversation. It's just money.

[RELENTLESS 1]

First of all isn't "Ethics of Negotiation" a oxymoron?

We looked at dozens of boats, missed a couple of deals, but got very educated. We made an offer on a nice boat that had been for sale for 6 months, our Broker recommended we go in 30% under. They rejected our offer, another opportunity came up in the interim, and the Seller still owns the boat 2 years later - and to my bewilderment - hasn't lowered the price! Yikes! In the RE business we call that an unmotivated Seller - or a fool w/more money than sense.....