European Bluewater Cruisers

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by GTom

Actually a smaller Hallberg-Rassy is on my shortlist but its a full-keel boat...

That would be one of the old Enderlein designs. Lovely boats but most certainly not speed demons!

Since at least 20 years they all have bolt-on keels, and lately, spade rudders.

[cruiser_wannabe]

Originally Posted by crankysailor

Thanks Pete... so you mean any of these modern designs with a fin keel and spade rudder will hove to without drama should the s hit the fan ?

I promised myself once I would never buy a yacht without emergency brakes :-) so that is important for me...

We have been able to ‘put the breaks on’ our HR 37 very easily.

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by cruiser_wannabe

We have been able to ‘put the breaks on’ our HR 37 very easily.

Well I wouldn’t put the HR 37 on the same category to be honest. You don’t really have that high aspect fin keel for starters...

[cruiser_wannabe]

Yeah, ok. Get your point

[daletournier]

I met a guy cruising on the below. 95 year old boat by memory, keel hasn't fallen off yet and he's cruising the world.

http://www.seawanhaka.com/about.htm

[GTom]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That would be one of the old Enderlein designs. Lovely boats but most certainly not speed demons!

Indeed, not one of the latest models, a Monsun 31 with several ocean passages, circumnavigations and I also know about a completed Northwest Passage.

No need for a speed demon here, I buy an air ticket if in a hurry

[double u]

this is what you say now at your dry desk, after endless beating north in the RS against 25+kn & +120° between tacks you might think differently...; or if you are still on your way from Tonga to NZ & get clobbered while your faster friends are already in Whangarei..

[GTom]

Originally Posted by double u

this is what you say now at your dry desk, after endless beating north in the RS against 25+kn & +120° between tacks you might think differently...; or if you are still on your way from Tonga to NZ & get clobbered while your faster friends are already in Whangarei..

Haven't been down there, but up here in the north I had no problem doing ~80° tack to tack in an old Rival, why is that 120°?

Speed is not everything...

[double u]

80° COG???

[GTom]

Originally Posted by double u

80° COG???

Didn't take exact notes (and wasn't my boat that I could check the track on the plotter) but I recall somewhat better than 90° values. If I sail that boat again I promise I'll check

[double u]

with developed seas? an old Rival? upwind at 40° true? hmmmmm....
seen plenty of boats that sailed more "to-&-fro" than "up-wind"
speed imho isn't "everything", the boat has got to be "liveable" too, needs certain "comfort" systems (that's very personal), but for us speed definitely is a parameter that counts, & upwind speed too! (one rtw in a Wharram is going to last us a lifetime!)

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by double u

with developed seas? an old Rival? upwind at 40° true? hmmmmm....
seen plenty of boats that sailed more "to-&-fro" than "up-wind"
speed imho isn't "everything", the boat has got to be "liveable" too, needs certain "comfort" systems (that's very personal), but for us speed definitely is a parameter that counts, & upwind speed too! (one rtw in a Wharram is going to last us a lifetime!)

I share your philosophy about sailing performance and your doubts about the Rival's tacking angles.

GTom, if you didn't check the track on a plotter or equivalent, how could you determine those angles? Looking at the compass ain't enough...

Jim

[GTom]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I share your philosophy about sailing performance and your doubts about the Rival's tacking angles.

GTom, if you didn't check the track on a plotter or equivalent, how could you determine those angles? Looking at the compass ain't enough...

Jim

Yeah, that was compass, nothing more serious. Anyway, will check next time!

[double u]

...& speed @40°TWA would be interesting too...

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by double u

...& speed @40°TWA would be interesting too...

And even if the boat could do a decent speed at 40* TWA, that does not include the several degrees of leeway that even really good boats do...

And looking at the track on a plotter is not foolproof, for even a small favorable current will have a big effect upon the recorded track's angles.

Jim