Excuse me sir, don‘t wanna lowball but...

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The art business is a surprisingly dirty world. The only art dealer I ever knew well was also the only person I ever knew well who did hard time in prison. A very nice guy, too.

Yes, a lot of shady stuff out there. I once was in a car auction at the end of the day. The punters had all left one by one during earlier sales, but the auctioneer didn’t appear to notice and was on robot mode. The next car came up and I was surprised to see bids for it. I looked very hard, there was no one there and I didn’t even twitch, so it couldn’t have been me. He bid it up to a high price, presumably the reserve and it failed to sell. That’s the clearest example of the practice I have witnessed, but I have seen it many times with property and art including vendors bidding for their own stuff and had admissions from several auctioneers too of them doing it routinely. Amazing no one has flushed this out.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Lots of homework goes in to a couples choice for a cruising boat, it's certainly never a case of multiple low ball offers on different boats. This may make sense for someone in the business but not a couple looking to buy. They decide on the type, mono or cat then they decide on the size and if it's aft or center cockpit. Once they get to this stage it's not leaving much choice and they usually shop like hell to find one in decent shape roughly in their price range and only if they can't find anything will they change their criteria. If they run in to a real good example of the boat they are looking for then they are highly lively to put in a fair offer and not risk a lowball. So yes it is an emotional decision close to buying a home. The ideal outcome is when both buyer and seller feel they did ok considering.

If you get hung up on a single oddball design, what you say is true. You can't walk away and you give up your negotiating leverage.

If you are looking for specific features or a production boat, there are typically other options available and you retain the ability to walk away from a specific boat. That means you have the leverage.

[lifeofreilly57]

Depends on the selling price, if it's close to market make a reasonable offer with the caveat of an adjustment if the survey turns up issues. I've always priced my boats realistically when selling, I don't need to sit on it for 6 months to get a couple thousand extra, I'll lose more than that in yard fees and insurance costs. Last boat I sold was on market for 14 days when it sold, because it was priced realistically and in good shape. But I do understand that many people have an outsized idea of what their boat is worth. WHen mine sold there were a couple others like it priced much higher that were not in as good a shape, they were still sitting when the next season came about.
Do your comparison shopping when making an offer, also take into account what the condition of the boat is, a bargain is not always a bargain if it costs more to fix. If you pay a little extra for a boat that's in excellent condition you've already saved a bunch.

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by lifeofreilly57

Last boat I sold was on market for 14 days when it sold, because it was priced realistically and in good shape.

After watching the market for two years I can confirm that - boat priced right sells immediately - often in few hours after it was listed. Such deals are extremely hard to catch. If you're not sitting at the computer all day long, all you will see - newly listed boat with "sale pending" sign.

Other than that - in some categories of boats all that you see - boats which listed 1-2-3 years ago, most - at such stupid prices that it doesn't even make sense to contact the broker. And if you ask - yes, I've tried to contact some of them. They do not provide extra pictures, they can't give more information (sometimes they don't even know information from listing), they will tell you that price is very reasonable and it is a very good deal. Or they don't answer at all. Period.

What's more odd - for couple boats I've managed to find contact information of boat owners. Company e-mail, so nothing personal was touched. Guess what? Owners were rather suspicious than helpful (even though one of them sent me few extra pictures). I would expect them to be happy to deal directly, to avoid third (and worst!!!) party, but no, it wasn't the case.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

What's more odd - for couple boats I've managed to find contact information of boat owners. Company e-mail, so nothing personal was touched. Guess what? Owners were rather suspicious than helpful (even though one of them sent me few extra pictures). I would expect them to be happy to deal directly, to avoid third (and worst!!!) party, but no, it wasn't the case.

If they have a contract with a broker, for selling the boat, then it is not at all odd that they would want you to deal with the broker. They have hired him to take care of that stuff, and they are going to have to pay him no matter who actually sells the boat, so they might as well get their money's worth out of him.

[valhalla360]

If you sell within a week or two, you might have gotten very lucky but more likely you left a lot of money on the table.

That might be worth it to you from a hassle and ongoing cost point of view but certainly isn't proof that you priced it right.

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

They have hired him to take care of that stuff, and they are going to have to pay him no matter who actually sells the boat, so they might as well get their money's worth out of him.

So, contract can't be terminated if owner sells boat on his own? Screw such contract then!
Actually, from time to time I see boats listed by broker AND on "for sale by owner" sites, at lower price. So I guess, it's matter of what you're signing.
I'd never give exclusive rights to the broker. It's just plain unnecessary slavery.
Just think - on $500k boat broker makes $50k (!) for (often) terrible service.
Isn't it much easier to sell boat for $450k without third party, faster, and make buyer much happier?!

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

So, contract can't be terminated if owner sells boat on his own? Screw such contract then!
Actually, from time to time I see boats listed by broker AND on "for sale by owner" sites, at lower price. So I guess, it's matter of what you're signing.
I'd never give exclusive rights to the broker. It's just plain unnecessary slavery.
Just think - on $500k boat broker makes $50k (!) for (often) terrible service.
Isn't it much easier to sell boat for $450k without third party, faster, and make buyer much happier?!

While I agree a lot of brokers are garbage, good luck getting one to agree to your terms.

The problem is what is to stop owners from getting ahold of the buyers info and cutting the broker out to save the commission. These terms protect the broker from owners trying to cheat them since it's often difficult to impossible to prove who provided the buyer.

If you don't like your broker, set them loose before you sell. There will likely be a cooling off period so you can't just release the broker and then sell with no commission the next day and even beyond that period, if the broker can show they brought the buyer in, they are owed the commission.

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

While I agree a lot of brokers are garbage, good luck getting one to agree to your terms.

The problem is what is to stop owners from getting ahold of the buyers info and cutting the broker out to save the commission. These terms protect the broker from owners trying to cheat them since it's often difficult to impossible to prove who provided the buyer.

If you don't like your broker, set them loose before you sell. There will likely be a cooling off period so you can't just release the broker and then sell with no commission the next day and even beyond that period, if the broker can show they brought the buyer in, they are owed the commission.

Or just .. u know .. don't get a broker

I think what people don't realize is how jaded most of them seem to be. I get it.. lots of tire kickers, the internet has made it easier for people to ask for info and never turn up again, etc..

But owners need to realize that in the segment we are talking about at least (sailboats for regular folk, not super yachts) I suspect the commissions are peanuts to most of them. They might simply chase the big commissions and where he stands to make 2 or 3K.. meh.. if I have the time..

So as a very motivated buyer working almost full time right now to find a boat, I can tell you, you are doing yourself a disservice by not putting the time and effort to list the boat yourself. I wish I could find the owners of two or three yachts which I have been trying to visit and keep getting glacial responses (if any at all) from their brokers. And the poor sap is sitting there at home wondering why his baby is not selling !!!!

[Olly75]

Originally Posted by crankysailor

Or just .. u know .. don't get a broker

I think what people don't realize is how jaded most of them seem to be. I get it.. lots of tire kickers, the internet has made it easier for people to ask for info and never turn up again, etc..

But owners need to realize that in the segment we are talking about at least (sailboats for regular folk, not super yachts) I suspect the commissions are peanuts to most of them. They might simply chase the big commissions and where he stands to make 2 or 3K.. meh.. if I have the time..

So as a very motivated buyer working almost full time right now to find a boat, I can tell you, you are doing yourself a disservice by not putting the time and effort to list the boat yourself. I wish I could find the owners of two or three yachts which I have been trying to visit and keep getting glacial responses (if any at all) from their brokers. And the poor sap is sitting there at home wondering why his baby is not selling !!!!

Its not just brokers, I've had barely a 10% response rate from owners I've contacted directly- having used contact details either from self made websites or the contact details directly on the boats themselves.

Allegedly its a buyers market......

[john61ct]

For many if not most boat owners, their boat is very very far down their list of priorities, and the carrying costs relative to their income are comparable to what most Americans spend on coffee.

So they could care less if it sells or not, after a few years might just give it away to someone in the right place at the right time.

Then you have health issues, relatives handling estates, divorce nightmares etc etc.

Humans are rarely economically rational creatures.

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by Olly75

Its not just brokers, I've had barely a 10% response rate from owners I've contacted directly- having used contact details either from self made websites or the contact details directly on the boats themselves.

Allegedly its a buyers market......

I have come to realize it is a buyers market inside a sellers market

What I mean is the 10% of solid boats well taken care of that people actually want to buy is a buyers market.. while the other 90% is made of boats people can't seem to get rid of. The irony.

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by john61ct

For many if not most boat owners, their boat is very very far down their list of priorities, and the carrying costs relative to their income are comparable to what most Americans spend on coffee.

So they could care less if it sells or not, after a few years might just give it away to someone in the right place at the right time.

Then you have health issues, relatives handling estates, divorce nightmares etc etc.

Humans are rarely economically rational creatures.

I dunno.. if you think about a 100K USD 40ft boat costing anywhere from 2 to 4K or even more in marina fees plus running maintenance assuming you don't just neglect the poor boat.. somewhere north of 5K a year .. damn that is a lot of coffee you americans are drinking!!

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Olly75

Its not just brokers, I've had barely a 10% response rate from owners I've contacted directly- having used contact details either from self made websites or the contact details directly on the boats themselves.

Allegedly its a buyers market......

The problem is that sellers have to deal with so many flakes thinking that they can steal a nicely kept boat and it's all internet related. Flakes have a harder time on the phone and in person so if your a buyer get away from your keyboard and either go and look at it or get on the phone.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

The problem is that sellers have to deal with so many flakes thinking that they can steal a nicely kept boat and it's all internet related. Flakes have a harder time on the phone and in person so if your a buyer get away from your keyboard and either go and look at it or get on the phone.

Very good point