Excuse me sir, don‘t wanna lowball but...

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

If you are the buyer, you don't pay the commission anyway.
To encourage theft (which is what you propose), is still unethical.

It's OK, not to like brokers and to avoid using them but once you do use them, trying to cheat them out of their commission makes someone a thief.

Being angry about bad service in the past doesn't justify contract fraud in the present.

Ok, that started to sound like total BS. Where's theft and fraud? The contract has term length. I did NOT buy boat during this term length. I did NOT contact broker, he did NOT introduce me to the seller, he does NOT know about my existence in this world, I don't know his name either.
I found seller's contact information myself. I did NOT sign any agreement with that unknown broker, so I don't owe him anything no matter what.

Words FRAUD and THEFT might be pronounced only when actual law is broken.
So which law is broken?

*to introduce -
make (someone) known by name to another in person, especially formally.
"I must introduce you to my wife"

I guess sometimes it's worth to learn some English first.
Stop scaring people with BS speculations.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

Ok, that started to sound like total BS. Where's theft and fraud? The contract has term length. I did NOT buy boat during this term length. I did NOT contact broker, he did NOT introduce me to the seller, he does NOT know about my existence in this world, I don't know his name either.
I found seller's contact information myself. I did NOT sign any agreement with that unknown broker, so I don't owe him anything no matter what.

Words FRAUD and THEFT might be pronounced only when actual law is broken.
So which law is broken?

*to introduce -
make (someone) known by name to another in person, especially formally.
"I must introduce you to my wife"

I guess sometimes it's worth to learn some English first.
Stop scaring people with BS speculations.

Seeing a sign on the boat or a website with the boat, qualifies as "introduction" and occurred during the brokerage contract period. Since you indicated you saw it under several broker's websites, it's safe to assume the broker "introduced" you to the boat (the court will see it that way).

If you actually called up or emailed the broker is no longer relevant. You were introduced by the broker.

Since you purposely told the seller to end the brokerage and then complete the sale, that shows clear intent to commit contract fraud with the end result being the theft of the broker's commission. Reality is if the broker finds out, they have a much easier case against the seller compared to you as you were only encouraging fraud and the seller is the one who committed it. Theoretically, they could go after you but as one who is aiding and abetting, it's a tough case to win.

No scare tactics just pointing out basic contract law and unethical behavior.

Reality is there is a good chance you get away with it but getting away with it doesn't make it legal or ethical.

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Seeing a sign on the boat or a website with the boat, qualifies as "introduction" and occurred during the brokerage contract period. Since you indicated you saw it under several brokers, it's safe to assume the broker "introduced" you to the boat (the court will see it that way).

If you actually called up or emailed the broker is no longer relevant. You were introduced by the broker.

Since you purposely told the seller to end the brokerage and then complete the sale, that shows clear intent to commit contract fraud with the end result being the theft of the broker's commission. Reality is if the broker finds out, they have a much easier case against the seller compared to you as you were only encouraging fraud and the seller is the one who committed it.

No scare tactics just pointing out basic contract law and unethical behavior.

Reality is there is a good chance you get away with it but getting away with it doesn't make it legal or ethical.

O yeah, interpreting words to their convenience - it's so US-style!
Sign "for sale" might "introduce" me to the boat, not to the seller.
I might tell the seller I will wait till contract ends, why you insist I will ask to terminate contract?

To use word "reality" it must reflect reality, not some BS speculations.

In reality: in situation I've described broker NEVER even THEORETICALLY can find out who I am, how and when I found the seller, and what my agreement with seller was. It is REALITY. The rest - just speculations.

And last word I would use when talking about dealers, realtors, brokers, lawyers would be "ethic". These words just can not be used together. And it is also REALITY.

[Attikos]

Not long ago I went into the market to look for my first cruiser. It quickly became apparent that quite a few sellers have unrealistic opinions of the value to others of their beautiful boats. That's to be expected; it's natural. Everyone is subject to it. People do the same when selling houses.

With brokers, I ran into a common attitude I didn't care for, though. I more than once was told that making a low offer would be taken as an offense, and would be rejected out of hand, with an implied threat it would affect my ability to buy a boat I wanted and would make it difficult to do business. The right reply to that is to say in no uncertain words that the broker doesn't get to set the terms of your offer, only you do, and that if he doesn't like it then, fine, he'll get what he wants. You and he won't be doing business together.

The threat always involved missing out on a boat. Frankly, screw that. Never, ever allow yourself to fall in love with a boat you don't already own. If the broker or seller spits on an offer you make, write it off and keep looking. Don't worry. There are lots of other boats out there you'd like, and lots of other people not hard to deal with. No hard feelings, but that's how it works. Goodbye and good luck.

Learn your needs, know them well, write them down. Take as much time as required to evaluate an interesting boat's fit with them, then offer what that boat is worth to you. Period. Walk away if that isn't enough for the seller.

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by Attikos

Not long ago I went into the market to look for my first cruiser. It quickly became apparent that quite a few sellers have unrealistic opinions of the value to others of their beautiful boats. That's to be expected; it's natural. Everyone is subject to it. People do the same when selling houses.

With brokers, I ran into a common attitude I didn't care for, though. I more than once was told that making a low offer would be taken as an offense, and would be rejected out of hand, with an implied threat it would affect my ability to buy a boat I wanted and would make it difficult to do business. The right reply to that is to say in no uncertain words that the broker doesn't get to set the terms of your offer, only you do, and that if he doesn't like it then, fine, he'll get what he wants. You and he won't be doing business together.

The threat always involved missing out on a boat. Frankly, screw that. Never, ever allow yourself to fall in love with a boat you don't already own. If the broker or seller spits on an offer you make, write it off and keep looking. Don't worry. There are lots of other boats out there you'd like, and lots of other people not hard to deal with. No hard feelings, but that's how it works. Goodbye and good luck.

Learn your needs, know them well, write them down. Take as much time as required to evaluate an interesting boat's fit with them, then offer what that boat is worth to you. Period. Walk away if that isn't enough for the seller.

Sounds reasonable to me.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Attikos

I more than once was told that making a low offer would be taken as an offense...

I would tell that broker the same thing that I have said on here more than once: If you are offended by a low offer then you are taking the selling process WAAAAY too personally. It's just business. I'm not buying your first-born. It's just a boat.

Of course, the fact is that there are a lot of sellers out there who DO take the selling process way too personally. As a buyer, that is not my concern. That is their problem. And it IS a "problem," because in most cases they would sell the boat (or whatever) more quickly, more easily, and likely for more money, if they would treat it as the business deal that it is, rather than as some deeply emotional, traumatic event. Get past the trauma BEFORE you put the boat on the market, not after you start receiving offers!

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

And it is also REALITY.

Sorry but each jurisdiction has its own reality, and if you were talking about one outside the US maybe things are different.

Yes the law favors property owners and the professionals making money protecting their interests.

Yes that is often unjust, certainly unfair. Not just in the US, but especially so. But *that* is reality. Wishful thinking that you can escape this injustice is not.

You very clearly demonstrate your disregard for both the law and professional ethics, and I am sure that will never work in your favor.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

If buyer contacts me and asks if I would sell privately, guess what I would answer? Wait till contract ends, then you can buy it at discount if it won't be sold earlier.

You originally presented this as a hypothetical where YOU are the seller. How it got off on the track where you are pretending to be the buyer, I don't know. In any case, what you suggest above (at least in the United States) would clearly and unquestionably constitute fraud, and would be illegal as well as unethical.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

I would tell that broker the same thing that I have said on here more than once: If you are offended by a low offer then you are taking the selling process WAAAAY too personally. It's just business. I'm not buying your first-born. It's just a boat.

Of course, the fact is that there are a lot of sellers out there who DO take the selling process way too personally. As a buyer, that is not my concern. That is their problem. And it IS a "problem," because in most cases they would sell the boat (or whatever) more quickly, more easily, and likely for more money, if they would treat it as the business deal that it is, rather than as some deeply emotional, traumatic event. Get past the trauma BEFORE you put the boat on the market, not after you start receiving offers!

The dynamic between broker and client usually works the other way around -- the broker cares mostly about selling the boat as quickly as possible -- the quicker the deal and the less effort he has to spend on it, the better his return on his time. This is a serious conflict of interest, and so selling brokers will usually be talking down the price to their clients. If they refuse to bring an offer to a client, then this is so much against their interests that it probably really means that the offer has no chance.

A good broker is worth his weight in gold, but it is true that good brokers are hard to find. A good broker will be genuinely dedicated to the interests of the client and will not be looking to minimize the time he spends, in order to improve his own short-term gain. A good broker will take a long term view that professionalism will be worth spending more time on in the short term, because he will develop a good reputation by serving his clients well, and will get more business that way in the long run. It takes a good client to recognize the good broker. The stupid or greedy client will never figure it out. Having a broker is not a substitute for having judgment of your own.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

O yeah, interpreting words to their convenience - it's so US-style!

Sign "for sale" might "introduce" me to the boat, not to the seller.
I might tell the seller I will wait till contract ends, why you insist I will ask to terminate contract?
The broker is selling the boat not the owner. If they introduce the buyer to the boat and the buyer buys it, the broker did what they were contracted to do and is entitled to payment as laid on in the contract.

The quote from you below clearly violates the contract terms. You are purposely not selling during the contract to a buyer when you agreed contractually to pay the broker if the boat sells during the brokerage period. That's why they say introduced and not "sold". Remember, contract law is preponderance of the evidence not beyond a reasonable doubt, so if push came to shove and it goes to court, expect the judge to look at the fact you knew the buyer before the brokerage contract was done and purposely delayed the sale as a violation of the contract.

Quote: If buyer contacts me and asks if I would sell privately, guess what I would answer? Wait till contract ends, then you can buy it at discount if it won't be sold earlier.


To use word "reality" it must reflect reality, not some BS speculations.

In reality: in situation I've described broker NEVER even THEORETICALLY can find out who I am, how and when I found the seller, and what my agreement with seller was. It is REALITY. The rest - just speculations.

I believe I've said multiple times now...it's hard for the broker to police this fraud but I certainly would say "never". Most brokers know the local marinas and when the new owner signs over the slip lease, there is a fair chance the broker hears about it.

But again, getting away with fraud does not mean it's legal or ethical.

And last word I would use when talking about dealers, realtors, brokers, lawyers would be "ethic". These words just can not be used together. And it is also REALITY.

As far as your last comment, I guess I hold myself above the lowest common denominator.

If you are worried, they won't meet their contractual obligations, spell the out up front in the contract. Once you agree to the contract, you accepted it.

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

As far as your last comment, I guess I hold myself above the lowest common denominator.

I believe I've said multiple times now...it's hard for the broker to police this fraud but I certainly would say "never". Most brokers know the local marinas and when the new owner signs over the slip lease, there is a fair chance the broker hears about it.

But again, getting away with fraud does not mean it's legal or ethical.

There's huge difference between "hard to police" and "impossible to police".
If something impossible to proof or police, there's NO FRAUD. IT SIMPLY DOES NOT EXIST until there is a way to proof it.

And again words "ethic" and "broker" can't stay together, so blaming me not to be ethic to the broker just makes me laugh. Same goes to the "law" and "ethic". These things very often stay on opposite sides from each other.

[john61ct]

As much as the religious and moral absolutists would like to think otherwise,

ethics, as well as the law, are cultural constructs, and what we learn as kids growing up ends up viewed as eternal Truth.

I think we've a case here of "and never the twain shall meet".

So I'll just repeat from a purely pragmatic POV, I don't believe your position will work in your favour over the long term.

What goes around comes around.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by john61ct

. . . .
So I'll just repeat from a purely pragmatic POV, I don't believe your position will work in your favour over the long term.

What goes around comes around.

Amen!

You may talk yourself into believing that it's OK to screw brokers (or lawyers), but this kind of behavior, whether or not your own moral code allows it, does have a way of coming back around to you sooner or later. People have a way of smelling out nasty, unprincipled people.

Better to treat people the way you would like to be treated yourself -- it's surprising also the extent to which THAT will come back to you.

[kmacdonald]

Brokers complain that buyers don't show up for scheduled showings and buyers complain that they went to see a "bristol" boat that was ready for the chainsaws. In business deals, it's everyone for themselves. You'll have a chance of coming out ahead once you realize that.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Amen!

You may talk yourself into believing that it's OK to screw brokers (or lawyers), but this kind of behavior, whether or not your own moral code allows it, does have a way of coming back around to you sooner or later. People have a way of smelling out nasty, unprincipled people.

Better to treat people the way you would like to be treated yourself -- it's surprising also the extent to which THAT will come back to you.

I agree that you're either the type person who takes advantage of every little loophole or technicality to rationalize to yourself that what you are doing is ethical, or you don't, and for better or worse, whichever type person you are usually comes back around to you at some point.

But lawyers are sort of a special case because the way the courts are set up they are obligated to do their best to look for every little loophole in the law that will allow their client to walk free, regardless of whether their client actually did the crime they are accused of. I understand that it has to be that way for the justice system as a whole to work, but even though it's perfectly legal, and lawyers are required to do their best to accomplish it, I'll never accept that it's ethical to get a murderer or rapist off due to a technicality. That doesn't justify anyone cheating lawyers out of their due any more than cheating anyone else is OK, but it does sort of explain why many people believe that lawyers are among the least ethical amongst us so if you're going to cheat anyone, it's less bad to cheat another unethical person. That said, my best friend is an extremely conscientious lawyer and in all his personal dealings is as honest and dependable as anyone I've ever met, but he has taken cases and got defendants off when everyone in town, including him, knew his client was guilty. He doesn't like it but that's his job and he's sworn to give every client (some assigned to him by the court) the best defense possible and he takes that obligation seriously. Lawyers have to be concerned with dealing very precisely with what is legal and without any regard as to whether they personally believe it is also ethical and can only hope that the way the laws are written and how the jurors decide, what is determined to be legal also happens to be ethical in the majority of their cases. I'd have a tough time living with that obligation knowing that a pretty high percentage of my clients actually did the crime they were accused of and if left unpunished will soon victimize another innocent person. I guess that's a really long way of saying that I'm glad I'm not a lawyer....