Excuse me sir, don‘t wanna lowball but...

[siamese]

This is a topic that seems to come up frequently. The notion of offering a percentage of the asking price is a notion that should be discarded. To expect that a percentage of asking price is a viable concept, you would have to believe that seller asking prices are always arrived at in some rational, fair, knowledgeable way and that all sellers are equally motivated, and possessed of sound mind. That's a hell of a lot of believen'.

Figure out what you'd be willing to pay, and offer something less than that. Give the seller a little room to raise your offer so they don't feel too beat up.

If the seller considers your offer to be a lowball offer, that's their problem. Bear in mind, you can't buy every boat.

I think the only way the seller should be mad at you is if you take a lot of their time, and then make an offer much lower than they were expecting. In that case, you'd better be ready to duck.

If, in your first contact, you tell them you'd be interested in paying X for their boat if it's in the sort of condition you're looking for, and would they be interested in moving forward toward an eventual purchase. If they fail to call you back, keep looking.

If I get a lowball offer, early on, my gut reaction is to be a little offended, but within ten seconds I become rational. "Thanks for your interest and your offer, but it's considerably less than I'm willing to accept at this point and therefore don't have a counter-offer for you. If circumstance change I may re-contact you, or perhaps you'll adjust your offer?" What's so hard about that?

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by siamese

This is a topic that seems to come up frequently. The notion of offering a percentage of the asking price is a notion that should be discarded. To expect that a percentage of asking price is a viable concept, you would have to believe that seller asking prices are always arrived at in some rational, fair, knowledgeable way and that all sellers are equally motivated, and possessed of sound mind. That's a hell of a lot of believen'.

Figure out what you'd be willing to pay, and offer something less than that. Give the seller a little room to raise your offer so they don't feel too beat up.

If the seller considers your offer to be a lowball offer, that's their problem. Bear in mind, you can't buy every boat.

I think the only way the seller should be mad at you is if you take a lot of their time, and then make an offer much lower than they were expecting. In that case, you'd better be ready to duck.

If, in your first contact, you tell them you'd be interested in paying X for their boat if it's in the sort of condition you're looking for, and would they be interested in moving forward toward an eventual purchase. If they fail to call you back, keep looking.

If I get a lowball offer, early on, my gut reaction is to be a little offended, but within ten seconds I become rational. "Thanks for your interest and your offer, but it's considerably less than I'm willing to accept at this point and therefore don't have a counter-offer for you. If circumstance change I may re-contact you, or perhaps you'll adjust your offer?" What's so hard about that?

Good post

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

So, what are you proposing to do? Make a "low ball" offer over the phone on a vessel not seen?

Perhaps you should limit your investigations to boats that you can easily inspect!

Jim

Why limit your options when you can ask?

Yeah, it's basically a preliminary offer to be updated once the boat is viewed. If the seller says your not even in the ballpark, you can save yourself the cost of the trip. If he is open, you can visit and if viable make a firm offer.

As long as you don't make a firm commitment, it's a good way to screen out overpriced boats.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

... As long as you don't make a firm commitment, it's a good way to screen out overpriced boats.

And probably all of the good boats from knowledgeable sellers. It's possible you will find a good boat from a seller that does not know boats... but that would make him a person who probably does not know how to maintain a boat....

See where this is going? You'll end up with a cheap boat that is not the one you want, that needs work, and will have crappy resale value and be sold cheap to someone who wants to offer half.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by thinwater

And probably all of the good boats from knowledgeable sellers. It's possible you will find a good boat from a seller that does not know boats... but that would make him a person who probably does not know how to maintain a boat....

See where this is going? You'll end up with a cheap boat that is not the one you want, that needs work, and will have crappy resale value and be sold cheap to someone who wants to offer half.

If I think the boat is worth around $50k and the seller thinks it's worth $100k, it doesn't matter what the independent market value and condition is. I want to screen it out before spending the time and money on a trip to visit the boat.

As has been mentioned on this thread and others, the idea that the seller is knowledgeable about the prices is more the oddity than the rule.

Of course, if I think the boat is worth $50k, it really needs to be justified, you can't just pull a number out of thin air but if that's where we are and the boat is listed at $100k, there probably is a lot of room to come down.

[john61ct]

And in fact there is no such thing as objective value, just historical transaction data, and every situation is unique.

If the seller gets motivated, there haven't been a lot of other candidate offers, and you are Johnny on the spot waving the green under his nose at the right time, you can get a great deal, much lower than he would even have considered a year ago.

It's a numbers game, but does take time and energy, maybe travel and survey costs as overhead.

The one fatal flaw on either side, just like real estate, is trying to work to a schedule, being in a hurry to buy or sell.

Having all the time in the world pays off in spades.

[Cheechako]

Many variables make up an offer. Just making an offer is dumb. Sell it, give reasons. Always include an expiration date of the offer.:
-recent sales of same type, or very similar type. irregardless of equipment.
-Length of time on the market. ( a "fresh" seller is convinced his is the best on the market. 1 year later he's more flexible as moorage costs and deterioration take place)
-Length of time of similar boat on the market. "this one has been sitting for 1.5 years".
-Past sales and a history from the internet of price decreases.
-Location
-Potential condition issues of the specific boat in question.
-Dont be too enthusiastic. Tell the broker about other boats you like, say you cant decide. "I guess I'll see if I can get anything going on this one first".

[CarlF]

What always gets left out of these discussions is the quality of the boat and the seller makes a huge difference.

A boat from a high quality builder, that has been scrupulously maintained by a loving owner, and is not an estate or divorce sale rarely goes for a big discount.

A cheaply built boat that has sat in it's slip with little maintenance for five years can often be had for a big discount. Especially if the seller has financial problems.

If you can buy a boat for 50% off, you should ask yourself what you don't know about it. The survey never finds everything.

It's all too common to get a big discount on a boat only to spend considerably more than the savings over the next year with repairs and upgrades. And you still own a cheaply built boat.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by CarlF

What always gets left out of these discussions is the quality of the boat and the seller makes a huge difference.

A boat from a high quality builder, that has been scrupulously maintained by a loving owner, and is not an estate or divorce sale rarely goes for a big discount.

A cheaply built boat that has sat in it's slip with little maintenance for five years can often be had for a big discount. Especially if the seller has financial problems.

If you can buy a boat for 50% off, you should ask yourself what you don't know about it. The survey never finds everything.

It's all too common to get a big discount on a boat only to spend considerably more than the savings over the next year with repairs and upgrades. And you still own a cheaply built boat.

Regardless of the pricing strategy, you don't know what the survey missed and an owner sticking to a price is no guarantee it's in good condition. Far too many irrational sellers in the market.

But if you offer the asking price or close to it, you will never know if there was room to take the price down.

[john61ct]

Yes, you should usually try to get a lower price.

It can (rarely) backfire on you with an offended seller.

More often the backfiring is that someone else gets it.

If you're willing to risk it, lowball away.

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Many variables make up an offer. Just making an offer is dumb. Sell it, give reasons. Always include an expiration date of the offer.:
-recent sales of same type, or very similar type. irregardless of equipment.
-Length of time on the market. ( a "fresh" seller is convinced his is the best on the market. 1 year later he's more flexible as moorage costs and deterioration take place)
-Length of time of similar boat on the market. "this one has been sitting for 1.5 years".
-Past sales and a history from the internet of price decreases.
-Location
-Potential condition issues of the specific boat in question.
-Dont be too enthusiastic. Tell the broker about other boats you like, say you cant decide. "I guess I'll see if I can get anything going on this one first".

This makes the assumption that people are rational in negotiations. We are not. Even when you think you are being cool headed and rational, you are not. It is human nature. And it turns out more often than not we act against our own interest even.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by crankysailor

So we are shopping for our next boat cause a new family member has pushed the step up issue a few years sooner than planned ;-) .. I do have a fairly good idea of what I want and have come across a boat that looks good on paper. However, asking price is simply off. I know everyone just says, offer half and go from there and I suspect most boats online are priced factoring in this phenomenon but on the other hand I just sold my boat and I know how I would have treated a low baller offering me half of asking price and let’s just say, no I would not have been „receptive“ to that...

But then being again on the buying side, some folks really are just asking for it...

Boats are tangled with emotion, but how does one „explain“ in a friendly manner to a seller that you like the boat, but the price is just 50% inflated (in your opinion ofcourse) without hurting anyone’s feelings?

Or am I right in assuming this is how the game is played and everyone really asks double of their real asking price ?

There are a lot of threads on this in the archives. I suggest reading them would be profitable.

In short, there is no rule -- every case is different, and there is not some "game" which "everyone is playing". Some prices are firm, some prices just the start of a bidding war which will go UP, some prices are subject to small negotiated adjustments, some sellers will take whatever someone will give them. There no easy rule to distinguish these cases from each other.

FWIW, I bought my boat in 2009 in the middle of the financial crisis, when I expected to find a real bargain. And there were plenty of bargains around, but not for any boat which I actually wanted. The boats I wanted were all priced more or less firmly. I managed to negotiate 10% or 15% off the asking price of an Oyster I almost bought, but the Moody I did buy I ended up paying every penny of the full asking price despite heroic attempts to negotiate. And I've never regretted it -- the price was fair, as it turns out, and the boat is not worth less today, 9 years later.

So you will just have to use your gut. If the price is "off", then offer whatever you think is fair to both of you. If you see signs that you might get a real bargain (boat long on the market, seller obviously under pressure), then give it a go. I wouldn't worry about hurt feelings if you sincerely believe that you are making a fair offer (which might be a pretty low offer if the seller really needs to sell), and conduct the negotiation in a respectful and polite way. The seller is not the only party with something at stake in the negotiation -- you are also risking all the time (and possibly money, if you had to travel) you spent finding that boat which you decided you want to try to acquire. Don't p*** off the seller just out of self-interest (in the first place).

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Yes, you should usually try to get a lower price.

It can (rarely) backfire on you with an offended seller.

More often the backfiring is that someone else gets it.

If you're willing to risk it, lowball away.

Sure, but just keep in mind that you can waste a ton of your own and other people's time "lowballing away".

In my experience, really desirable boats are rarely sold for lowball prices. The odd distress sale maybe; or boats which are being abandoned in a remote place after an unpleasant ocean crossing -- maybe. But the time it takes to find that kind of a bargain might eat up any savings you end up making.

One thing for sure -- don't just go around spewing out lowball offers on a ton of boats which you haven't taken the time to really get to know. You have to invest a fair amount of time to know whether a given boat is worth buying AT ANY PRICE or not. If you go out on the market with the idea that the main thing is to get a lowball offer accepted, then you will get burned -- you will initially be delighted to be getting something for half the asking price, but the boat will turn out to be worth only one-quarter the asking price, so you still paid double what it's really worth, or the boat will turn out to be worth nothing, since the work needed to get it into condition will cost more than the boat will be worth afterwards. You cannot know this without doing some work with regard to each boat you make an offer on, and the asking price is not necessarily a good guide to what the boat is worth. You have to do enough work to be able to judge the real value of the boat yourself, and you can't just assume that x percent off the asking price, or even half the asking price, must definitely be a good price for you.

[Attikos]

Five simple lessons I learned when getting a boat last year:
1. Never, ever allow yourself to fall in love with a boat that isn't already yours. Even if you think it's The One, keep at least one fallback on the table. Always be prepared to walk away and get another boat.
2. Remember, there are a lot of old sailors hanging around trying to make a living out of the boat market. Don't be very trusting. From brokers to surveyors to mechanics to lenders to insurers, learn enough about the world of boat ownership to enable your own judgments about what you're being told.
3. Owners almost always have the best of reasons to believe their boats are worth more than they really are. You can't afford to buy someone else's fantasies.
4. If you can, pay cash, and negotiate from the position of strength and the ability to make choices that gives you. If you can't, consider waiting until you can.
5. Understand your own needs at this stage of your sailing life. Know the basic criteria of your next boat. Never forget that, given those basics, you can make a boat into whatever you want it to be once it's yours.

[ranchero76]

I'm trying to think why I don't bother with lowball offers (as buyer). I think it's simple unwillingness to deal with idiots. I'm watching the market, I have access to sold data, I can tell you (about boats in the category I'm interested in) more than most brokers. But look - if there's 2015 Lagoon 52 with all bells and whistles listed at 800K and at the same time 1988 Lagoon 57 listed at $1M, it's clear that one of the sellers needs to see doctor, and even 40% offer for Lagoon 57 will be stupidly high (not that I like that Lagoon 57, it's just a sample).
There are many boats sitting 2-3 years on the market and more, does someone really think I need to explain why their price is stupid? Like 3 years on the market is not enough explanation? Some boats might be unique and while I clearly see they're overpriced (years on the market, market situation and trends, age of the boat etc.), it would be hard to explain this in a few words to the seller.
You see - there are different categories of boats out there. Some of you complain that they drove 15 hr just to find POS. What if there are less than 100 boats which I potentially like WORLDWIDE? I'm not willing to travel allover Globe and fight with sellers, explaining to them that their boats overpriced 200% and THAT IS the reason they don't sell for years. Some of these boats already destroyed by hurricanes, some probably scrapped, but very very few sold at reasonable price.
I was sort of shocked to find out about nice Leopard 62 which was listed at $750K but sold at $475K. I was too new to all this at that time, and couldn't even imagine such huge difference between listed and sold prices.
So if you don't mind of possibly getting angry or inadequate response from seller - do your research first and then make an offer which you ABSOLUTELY comfortable with.

Originally Posted by Attikos

1. Never, ever allow yourself to fall in love with a boat that isn't already yours. Even if you think it's The One, keep at least one fallback on the table. Always be prepared to walk away and get another boat.

3. Owners almost always have the best of reasons to believe their boats are worth more than they really are. You can't afford to buy someone else's fantasies.

This is SO right! You can't afford to buy someone else's fantasies.