Formosa Boats - Your Thoughts ?

[Fishman_Tx]

I'm sure you can find a reputable surveyor in NY to give her the Once Over. Here's a start...
The Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors (SAMS) - Members in New York State
Marine Surveyors - New York - The Marine Surveyor Web Site
MARINE SURVEYOR IN LONG ISLAND, NY & MARINE SURVEYS IN LI, NEW YORK

There are many here on the forum who can advise you on how to go about the purchase. If she's solid and ready to go, bring crew along or hire to come to you.....

Also, I would contact the seller for more detailed photos of which they should be able to provide. Do as much long distance legwork as you can so a trip across the puddle isn't a waste. If the seller wants someone to buy, then they shouldn't have any problem with getting you more photos and details...

Fish

[Fishman_Tx]

Also, here's the link to the Formosa (41) builders site....

ta chou. yacht building co. ltd.

and

http://www.tachouship.com/

[Cheechako]

I love those 41's and 44's... cool looking. The big downside is the cabin abd cokpit plywood goes rotten. HUGE Problem. You might find some later CT 41's , 44's (double ender) etc that dont have the plywood.......

[anjou]

Originally Posted by speedoo

I'm a bit confused. You say don't want something built in the far east, but you are looking at Formosas.

Assuming you are willing to "take a chance" on something built in the far East, if you can reduce the odds of acquiring a money pit, I will again recommend that you consider the KP 44. It's probably a better risk than a Formosa because the KP 44's were built with better quality control, at one of the more reliable yards in Taiwan (at least at that time.. late 70's - early 80's). I think the potential problem areas for a KP 44 are now well known: water and fuel tanks, teak decks (which were available as an option, installed over solid fiberglass decks and therefore removable), blisters, waterlogged rudders, and on some boats, the genoa tracks. In addition, as they are 30 year old boats, chances are the electrical and plumbing systems will need some work, and of course the engine and sails must be checked out carefully. A good surveyor should have no trouble checking out those areas.

You might want to take a few minutes and read this article. IMO it's very informative.

http://www.kp44.org/ftp/ArticleFromB...nKp44_1998.pdf

And here ends my KP 44 sales pitch!

A great article, thank you. The 44 sounds like a great boat.

Im not at all confused but I do wish that the build quality and standards were the same as we enjoy in our home countries. But I guess knowing what and where to look for trouble is a good start

[speedoo]

Originally Posted by anjou

A great article, thank you. The 44 sounds like a great boat.

Im not at all confused but I do wish that the build quality and standards were the same as we enjoy in our home countries. But I guess knowing what and where to look for trouble is a good start

KP 44 is a great boat, but my guess is you'd have to spend more on a KP 44 than on a comparably sized Formosa. But I'll also guess that to find as much interior room on a Formosa as you would on a KP 44, you might have to go to a Formosa 50 or 51.

There are some threads here that discuss in some depth the issue of build quality from Taiwan. I recall seeing one in which one informed poster stated that most of the build quality there was quite good, but the reputation of Taiwan boat builders had taken a big hit because of the lack of quality in the yard that was building the Formosas. I have no opinion one way or another, except that I can personally attest to the quality of build in the KP 44.

If you have a serious interest in that NY based Formosa 41, I might be able to help out, since I live in NYC. It's possible that one of the prior owners did quite a bit of upgrading, so you might want to see if the broker has any information in that regard.

[Cheechako]

i mentioned this boat in another thread before, but have you considered the Freya 39? One of the prettiest boats on the water (Canoe stern), US built. They tend to run $45 to $75K! Long fin keel with Skeg protected rudder. Quite a few were owner completed from a partially factory constructed starting point. Here's an example ready to go: 1982 Gannon Yachts Freya 39 Cutter Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
Another option is the CT 44 built in Taiwan by Ta Chaio. Canoe stern by Yves Marie Tanton. This hull really is shaped like a canoe! Fast boat. Probably the most favorite boat I ever had (well maybe other than my catamaran!) They have some typical early Taiwan building problems, but nothing like the Formosa boats....and built like a tank. Really nice interior design. CT 44 Sailboat details (specs. English) on sailboatdata.com

[Beausoleil]

Anjou,

My wife and I are the proud owners of Beausoleil, a 1979 Formosa 51 ketch. She (the boat, not my wife!) suffered from some of the common problems attributed to Formosas - namely hull blisters and deck rot due to lack of maintenance of the teak decks. Luckily, the previous owner undertook extensive work, removing the teak decks and replacing the deck core with marine plywood, having a reputable outfit (Osmocote in Annapolis, Maryland) remove the blisters and re-barrier coat the bottom, as well as new Awlgripped topsides, and replaced the original wooden masts/booms with Seldén aluminum.

We bought her for a fair price, and proceeded to finish out the re-fit: new engine and drive train, including feathering prop, new diesel tanks, new electrical system (including 7.6kW genset and all new wiring), new electronics - radar, charplotter, etc., new watermaker, new ground tackle, etc. About the only things left are cosmetic, and nice-to-haves like full-battened main and mizzen, and whisker pole.

Yes, it definitely takes two to dock her with no bow thruster. We were thoroughly prepared for her reputation for "sailing like a pig", but were surprised with how well she moves in only 10 knots of apparent wind - typically 5 knots. When the wind pipes up to 15 knots, she'll do 7.5 knots. And that's with only main/mizzen/headsail - we don't even have the jib rigged just yet.

We've been cruising her full-time since mid-September of 2008 - and she turns heads everywhere we go. The only "serious" drawback we've come across is that her 6.5 foot draft kept us from some nice cruising grounds in the Florida Keys... That and some electrical issues I'm dealing with (discussed in another thread in the forum electrical section) are the only problems for now. The two of us can comfortably sail her. On a recent run from Marathon, Florida up to Fort Pierce, Florida, with winds up to 25 knots we hit as high as 8.3 knots on a broad run with lots of growth on her bottom (we just finished a bottom job! ).

[anjou]

I seem to be going round in circles in my boat search.

Ive been fairly sold on the Formosa design because of the huge living space, mainly a decent head and large aft cabin with a proper large double bed with room to put a real matress in there. Space for life without claustrophobia and not needing to strip everything down to convert to day mode, then back again at night.
Standing headroom is another vital point. Add to that, heads holding tank and shower.

The 31 is approx 26/27' at waterline, - living space, which seems a little tight, but the 41 is ideal. ive found one here in UK and was planning on a viewing this weekend, but I thought i would just run it past a couple of friends who have lived aboard for 20 years and circumnavigated.

The consensus was, they think it would be too big for me to handle solo and as such would end up being a dock queen because i would be terrified of running into other boats while manovering. Its a lot of canvas to handle, even though she is set up for handling from the cockpit. They said that waiting for friends to come and crew isnt realistic and I would just end up with a lot of cancelled trips. You want to head off for a long weekend and they can only spare one day etc

So, I spent half the night going through boatshed, yachtworld and apolloduck, looking for anything in the 30-36' range which friends suggested.
What did I find?...........nothing i could afford, thats for sure. Everything else falls into the day/weekend sailer catagory.

Many of the 36' boats are barely 30' below and as such, I dont feel i could live in a space that small without regretting my decision and then feeling that i had made a huge mistake.
Jeeeez, some only have 5'4" headroom, no hot water system, no storage space etc
I know some people have, can and do live on boats which are in the 20s, but maybe im not some people. If i wanted to day sail round the bay, then head home to a real bed and bathroom it would be different.

Talk some sense into me please. Am I being unreasonable? Are Sally and Tony wrong about a 41 becoming a dock queen?
Whats more important, etc?

If I wasnt single or had someone who I could regularly sail with, this wouldnt be an issue and I would opt for a larger boat, but just to buy a boat to live aboard and not sail defeats the object.

GRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[speedoo]

Anjou, I think that for you to get the best advice from this forum, it might be helpful if you talked a bit more about your sailing background. Certainly the possibility of the boat you buy becoming permanently attached to a dock becomes generally greater as the boat's displacement grows, but that risk also diminishes if you are an accomplished, fit sailor who has done some singlehanding before and you are willing to invest some time in learning to handle your boat well before venturing out too far.

Also, if you are not taller than 5'10" or so, most boats will not be a problem with regard to headroom.

What is your budget for this purchase and initial refit/fixup?

Finally, I'd recommend that you try to get a clear idea about how much you need in terms of acommodations. For example, if you expect to have frequent guests, that suggests two sleeping cabins as ideal, but one head should be sufficient. I think there are plenty of boats that fit that requirement, and IMO Beneteau has a great basic interior layout in their boats 30 feet and up. It features an aft head and an aft cabin as well as the standard v-berth and salon/galley. See this pic:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/gallery...searchid=48831

[Cheechako]

More details would be good. Budget? 38-40 ft is a real nice size boat, big enough to not be claustrophobic. I would hate to see you buy a large boat that has a lot of rot etc and is an overwhelming project. Your life will be more peaceful in a 36 footer in better condition! I think there may be a lot more options over here in the states....

[anjou]

OK

I guess like most people here, I was lucky enough to grow up with boats but once i left home and away from the sea, that was the end of it, so as regards sailing its fair to say next to no experience. I do have more experience of power boats though.

I would far rather a boat with one decent head than two hobbit sized ones. Im not too tall, 5'7" barefoot yet even that means i would have to stoop in many smaller boats.
This may sound pedantic too but i would so dearly love a double bed, not to be stowed away like cattle class in a 2'6" wide tube, inserted under a deck.
Whether i chose to dock or go on the hook, a head holding tank is required, otherwise i cannot use the head while inshore.
I think ive managed to secure a watermaker and I can rig up either PV or a turbine to top up the batteries.
Small generators arnt expensive as long as there is somewhere for it to live along with gasoline. Ive noticed that so many boats in the mid 30s are only classed as day/weekenders and dont even have a fridge. I guess any thoughts of a washing machine are just fantasy. Good job im living alone as there is little enough room for clothes and i couldnt keep up with the laundery anyway.

So you see, the problem here is im being advised that i need a weekend sized boat to be able to handle, yet live aboard and the two things are hard to reconcile.

The budget is up to $35,000. Not a lot i know, but if it means im staying debt free, then thats where quality of life lies for me. Ive never been in debt and im not about to start.

[speedoo]

OK, so your lack of sailing experience would cause me to take the side of your friends who are advising against a "big boat". I think a boat no larger than say 35 feet will provide you with the ability to live aboard comfortably and still be something that you should be able to handle by yourself, but only if you commit to some serious sailing and boat handling instruction.

In addition, I would advise you to postpone the addition of a watermaker and generator until after you have spent some time cruising. Because those are features that are needed only for long distance cruising IMO, not the kind of cruising you are likely to do for a few years. You could certainly keep those things in mind as you look at boats, in terms of looking for adequate space for installation in the future. But I think you will have your hands full looking after more basic systems like refrigeration pressure hot water, perhaps an electric windlass, the boats electrical system and of course the engine and rig, sails, etc.

On edit: I forgot my favorite recommendation.... try to find a boat equipped with a tiller instead of a wheel. A wheel on a 35 ft. or smaller is completely unnecessary, and whatever advantages it may have are well offset by the tiller's simplicity, relative lack of maintenance, lower cost, and the additional cockpit room especially when not underway.

[bob perry]

The Ta Chaio yard did not build the Formosa series. Ta Chaio built the CT series of similar 41'ers, i.e. the CT 41. The Formosa yard was just down the dusty street from the Ta Chaio yard but they were very seperate and not at all friendly with each other. I went to the Formosa yard one day to see a Slocum under construction but I had to be very careful so that no one from Ta Chaio saw me going in.

If you like the Formosa 51 style of boat you might take a look at my design, the CT54. The CT 56 is a later model and is even a better boat but it would be quite a bit more money. I go into my history of working with the Ta Chaio yard and the boats we did together in my book PERRY ON YACHT DESIGN ( shameless plug).
I think it is prettier ( of course) and a better built boat.

[speedoo]

Bob, I think the Ta Chaio yard also built the Kelly Peterson 44 and 46. Is that your understanding?

[bob perry]

Speed:
Not that I know. I spent a lot of time in that yard, it was actually two yards about a mile apart on the Tam Sui ( pronounced "Dan sway" river. I never saw a KP under construction there. Ta Chaio boats were all called CT's of some flavor as far as I know. The CT65 was also known as the Scorpio 72 in Europe. I could be wrong but I think I am right on this one.