Formosa Boats - Your Thoughts ?

[drivinmenuts]

but it sounds like it might be fun.
Well, just in the case of this particular Coronado, it looks clean enough that you shouldn't have to be ripping up the sole (floorboards). The modifications you'd need as a temporary liveaboard wouldn't require anything that can't be done in a weekend or two per project. This isn't the boat that is your goal anyway, it's a means to the ends, which is the boat that is your goal. You don't buy this one to gut and rebuild, you live on it to put your money onto the succeeding boat.
If your goal is to live aboard a boat, that in itself means shedding most of your "stuff", even on a CT-41. That's part of the lifestyle you say you want, and if it ends up not being the lifestyle you want, this is when to find out, not after you've invested tens of thousands of pounds and are alone in the Bay of Biscay damning yourself.
If you commit to finding the money for this very inexpensive coronado, if after you've gone and looked at it and deemed it fit, you either keep your flat and use it as a base of operations while you change the boat (minor upgrades would make it a liveaboard), if it needs it, and that's where you keep the bits. Or you simply work on it at the dock and put stuff out on the dock or in the cockpit while you work. Again, that's part of the lifestyle.
One thing about the rain is that's also part of the lifestyle. You're choosing to live on a vehicle, and after a career in the Army living for months at a time on tanks, I can assure you a Coronado 25 is like a palace in comparison. After my first summer on the Texas lakes, one of my priorities was making a huge awning that stretches 8' from side to side and from the mast to the backstay. Not because of rain, but because of 100F+ sun, although it serves to keep dry as well as shaded and cool.
When I had graduated from high school and before I went active-duty, I worked as a stern-man on a lobster boat off the coast of Maine on a small island named Matinicus. I lived in the loft of a bait shack with running cold water, a kerosense heater, a mattress on the floor, and an outhouse up the path. I worked on the Atlantic and lived from paycheck, and everything I had fit in two duffelbags.
In the Army, I lived on tanks, which is the equivalent of living in a volvo sedan with three other guys.
As soon as my kids are on their own, I'll be living that kind of a lifestyle again, the only difference is that it will be in comparative luxury to that shack and tanks.
Personally, if I didn't have my kids to consider, I myself wouldn't think twice about moving onto a Coronado 25. I'd already be there. Since part of having full custody of my children means I have to remain in this county or the county my ex lives in, that means I can't sell everything and move to St. Thomas and live on board a boat with my kids. Otherwise I'd possibly already be there. I've already researched the option. Since I can't, at least for now, well I can do what I'm doing now.
I'm not sure if you really understand what it is to live on a boat, but if that's truly what you think you want, the only obstacle is yourself, not your income or your 'stuff' or anything else. If you can't live without all your 'stuff', then you probably can't afford nor would you be able to handle a boat big enough that would be able to accomodate all your 'stuff'.
I think what you really ought to do is spend more time learning what a cruising life is really like, because it is most definitely more closely tied to lots of boat maintenance than it is the part about having sundowners in a secluded bay. Unless of course you end up being one of those who started out on a fit (?) boat and thought that the boat would take care of itself, until eventually it ends up with a for sale sign on the lifeline and a hula skirt hanging from the bottom paint.

[drivinmenuts]

I believe buying a deal in the US with the favorable exchange and then sailing to the BVI ought to forego at least some of the red tape. You'd want to hire a delivery captain to help you get it there, since you don't have any experience, but once you're there with the boat, everything else ought to fall into place.

[Fishman_Tx]

I agree with ...nuts. Maybe go smaller and Ready To Go, and send it to the BVIs or some such as they suggested. I would suggest something mid to upper 30s rather than in the 20s. Even for me 34 seems a bit "camperish" but that could just be that the cushions match the 70s Winnebago.
I have seen a few Bristol 34s going from US22,500-30K in immaculate Ready to Go condition. Look at my profile albums for the 73 model, I just uploaded a bunch of pix. Now remember, this one IS a fixer-upper. But the layout is pretty much the same on all "nearby" models (72-74) and these pix give you an idea of the size. These boats are TOUGH!
Here's some examples:
This has many upgrades and the usual issues have already been fixed. But is on Lake Huron, Ontario. (Closer to bring home?)
1972 Bristol 34 Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

This needs some work (paint) but is dirt cheap in Maine:
1971 Bristol Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Check also for 35s in your range.

[drivinmenuts]

There are various ways you can get to your destination. Fishman's strategy has the advantage of more comfort and space before you work your way up to a CT-41. It may be do-able if you rid yourself of your flat. We're talking about the financial issue with your limited income. You may be able to get it financed, and at the price range he's talking about, the payments should be comparable to your rent or better. The hard part is finding someone who will finance a boat that's older than 10 years. Most won't touch financing on a boat that's 30 years old, which is what you're looking at in a boat built in the 70's (which includes the majority of the CT-41's by the way). If you can get financing, and the payment is low enough, you can even sock the surplus away into mutual funds for the CT purchase. But you're also talking about learning to sail on a boat that's too much for a new sailor to handle alone. There's always the option of finding a friend with a smaller boat to learn on, crewing with someone who has a similar boat in size to the Bristol 34 to gain experience, etc.
You'd have to weight the pros and cons of different strategies. Like less space and comfort on a 25' boat but a huge surplus in income to invest in the dream boat, with the advantages of being able to try the lifestyle out sooner with less money involved, and the ease of learning to sail on a 25' boat. More space and comfort on the 34', with less spendable income, possible financing problems, difficulty in handling/learning alone etc., although a 34' is plenty big enough for a single person to live on indefinitely, if you decide you like it you're already at your goal of being a liveaboard cruiser.
With the bottom line being your initial post that your dream boat is a CT/Formosa, it is assumed though that whatever you get before then is a transitional boat, so anything between now and then should be weighed out only for advantages and disadvantages to your strategy of ultimately getting the dream boat.
One of the things about the Bristol route, is that if it is indeed immaculate at that price, is you will have your desired situation of not having a huge project undertaking to get the living condition of low maintenance. If you get a CT/Formosa, ever, you will not get that. They are nearly all built in the 70's, and if nothing else, you should completely rip out the wiring and replace it, otherwise you could find yourself 400 miles from Fiji in your dinghy watching the black smoke up in the sky as your dream boat slips beneath the waves. Any boat built in the 70's or earlier (in my opinion anything over 20 years old) should be completely rewired. Salt water/salt air and just about anything man-made to not get along well, which is another reason that living aboard in general is a maintenance heavy lifestyle.

[drivinmenuts]

Fishman's got another point. Unless you get something along the lines of a CT or Formosa, or actually find a true classic, which with your budget is not likely, then anything you buy is going to be a Clorox bottle. And again, if you don't want to live on a clorox bottle/milk jug, the level of maintenance needed takes a steep curve skyward. The romance of the look has a price.

[Fishman_Tx]

...nuts
I'd love to have this one myself and it's only 30k US but has been for sale quite a while. I showed this one to Anjou at the start of this thread a while back. I'm still trying to get more info on this one...

1977 Formosa 41' Formosa Ketch sailboat for sale in New York
1977 Formosa 41' Ketch. Excellent cruising/heavy weather boat. Great live on board boat. US Coastguard documented. The Gentleman's Guide to Passages South by Bruce Van Sant…”Most all sailors heading south for the Caribbean have this straight-talking book aboard and have studied it well. In his previous boat, the 41-foot ketch, Jalan Jalan, Bruce plied the islands from the Bahamas to Venezuela dozens of times, often singlehanded…” Solid fiberglass hull, no blisters. Solar panel, 2 battery banks. 2 x 75 gallon water tanks. 80% complete, needs some cosmetic TLC. Sold as is. Contact Extremes4you@aol.com

[anjou]

I emailed the broker and never had a reply on that NY boat. She has been on the market a while so its either a dog or they wont budge on the price. It says 'sold as is' is that code speak for buyer beware? I viewed one very similar here a few months ago and I was disapointed by the waste of space under the aft deck. Other varients on this William Garden design have an aft cabin which I would far prefer, and of course the centre cockpit/pilot house for more weather protection and additional space. When you see it on the formosa 51, it makes sense. Im so in love with the transom hatches which give that galleon appearance to the aft cabin.

[speedoo]

Originally Posted by Fishman_Tx

...nuts
I'd love to have this one myself and it's only 30k US but has been for sale quite a while. I showed this one to Anjou at the start of this thread a while back. I'm still trying to get more info on this one...

1977 Formosa 41' Formosa Ketch sailboat for sale in New York
1977 Formosa 41' Ketch. Excellent cruising/heavy weather boat. Great live on board boat. US Coastguard documented. The Gentleman's Guide to Passages South by Bruce Van Sant…”Most all sailors heading south for the Caribbean have this straight-talking book aboard and have studied it well. In his previous boat, the 41-foot ketch, Jalan Jalan, Bruce plied the islands from the Bahamas to Venezuela dozens of times, often singlehanded…” Solid fiberglass hull, no blisters. Solar panel, 2 battery banks. 2 x 75 gallon water tanks. 80% complete, needs some cosmetic TLC. Sold as is. Contact Extremes4you@aol.com

Well, Van Sant owned and sailed it, what more do you need to know? (sarcasm off)

Maybe if the seller took a few minutes to put some of that c--p away before taking those pics and tidying things up a bit, more buyers would interested? Sheesh.

[Fishman_Tx]

Honestly? I think it's just the old Formosa bugaboo. "It's gonna fall apart. They are a $$ pit. Too much to keep. Look how cheap the price, must be junk." I hear it ALL OVER THE FORUM, and it CHAPS MY @$$!!!! Too many people who've never even set FOOT on one are willing to run their traps to run these boats down. YES they have some issues. YES they require more maintenance, THEY GOT WOOD! WE KNOW! This all goes with the program of owning a classic boat with $hitloads of wood on it and YES it's expensive! ....nuts You Know intimately. I love these boats and I think the horrible rep they've got is the reason so many are rotting away today. Even an ugly baby needs a mom or dad to take care of them!

Ok I done now....

[Fishman_Tx]

I'd give both "schnutz" to have the "Wanderer" that's berthed in Kemah getting a refit, but I'd have to sell the house and the kids to be able to afford it. If one goes in with eyes open and well informed, then why not? I've seen people throw tons of $$ at restorations (any kind) with no thought to resale value but only thinking of what it'll be when it's done. Love has no price!

If one wants it bad enough, you set the goal, and by hook or by crook, you achieve it. It's better to try and fail than not to have tried at all.

[drivinmenuts]

That is truly a beautiful boat. Let's look at it a bit. It's not so much 'you get what you pay for' as knowing what you're paying for. I paid $2000 for mine, and almost no one in their right mind would have paid that. Bill's (the guy I bought it from) options were pretty much sell it for anything he could get for it, or bring it out and scuttle it so he could stop paying docking fees. After Hurricane Ike, the yard space tripled in price, the boat labor market tripled in hourly wages, and all resources became scarce because of the huge demand put on the local boating industry in recovering and fixing boats. Bill wanted to restore her, but he wasn't much for maintenance, as was obvious by the neglect she'd suffered before Ike was born. There were a couple of out of state prospectors, but when they tried to coordinate salvage and shipping from afar, couldn't do it for the reasons mentioned above. I went down on the spot for 6 weeks off and on wheeling and dealing after I wrote the check and managed all of it, for almost exactly $10,000, including the boat coming to a total investment of $12,000.
$30,000 for a boat that looks to be in the condition of the one you posted is CHEAP if she's in any shape at all without structural issues.
The vast majority of boat owners, which also means the vast majority of people making the negative comments, are weekend sailors who own clorox bottles. They don't do their own maintenance, don't live aboard, don't cruise out of a two day turnaround radius from their slip, and don't know the first thing about what a surveyor is really looking for, to say nothing about tieing a monkey's fist or how to use a swaging crimper.
Knowing what you're paying for is intimate knowledge of at least boats in general, even if not that particular make and model of boat. I knew exactly what I was paying for, and in the hour that I looked through her and made my decision, I knew that everything was coming out of her and the only thing that mattered was 1) was the hull sound 2) was the deck sound. That the masts could be salvaged was definitely a bonus, and anything else that could be salvaged was simply money saved later. Is a CT-41 hull and deck worth $2,000? Yes, to someone who knows what to do with them. Was it worth the $10,000 paid to get it from the mud at the slip onto stands 200 miles away in my backyard? Yes. What's the first reason it is worth it? Because I'd be paying the same $10,000 even if I bought the $30,000 boat to get it from the same slip to my backyard, so I could restore it and modify it to my liking.
Although I would hire a surveyor to bless or condemn a boat that costs $30,000, I'd be right there with him when he did the job, and the main thing I'd hire him for in the first place is to get it financed and insured, not to depend on his opinion of the boat. Surveyors are for the uneducated, and the reason financers and insurers know the vast majority of boat buyers haven't got the first clue about what they're actually paying for. Know what you're looking for and why, and you'll know for certain whether the boat is worth $30,000. Unless there's something horribly wrong with this boat, with prices for them being paid over $200,000 in places (the highest I've personally seen is $239,000 US), of course it's worth $30,000, even without a surveyor getting on board. The only question is how much money will it take to put her right and to your liking.

[drivinmenuts]

....I like the way you think.

[drivinmenuts]

Anjou, if it's wasted space, it's only because you haven't used it to advantage. For instance, another advantage of the hulk I bought was that I wasn't paying for a working engine. Within the next few years the hybrid systems will be streamlined and downpriced for the mass market. The traditional diesel straight to the shaft has some disadvantages that I don't want. With a sail drive system, I'll be putting my diesel generator down in that wasted space that my a** sits on back there while I'm at the wheel, which will in turn power the electric motor down there attached to the shaft instead. That gets that huge mass of the current perkins out of my salon, the noise out of the cabin, and the ability to generate electricity while sailing from the reversed process of the prop turning the motor pumping electricity back into the battery bank. The weight of the generator reduces the overall weight on the boat, and raising it higher can be offset by better tankage placed lower in the boat, like all that wasted space in the bilge of the Formosa as they were built, which in turn will improve stability.
Think of whatever boat you buy as something to be molded to your liking, like a well fitting glove. Any boat that was built in quantity was a compromise between a good boat and one that can be manufactured quickly and easily and repeatedly by semi-skilled labor, the CT/Formosa included. Last weekend I finally pumped the rest of the diesel out of the tank and pulled it up through the companionway with a block and line running from the taffrail to my Suburban (an ugly american gas guzzling SUV highly useful for such tasks as well as pulling trailer-sailers). Once it was in the cockpit, it was pitched to the ground below, because there is a better way to do it than the tanks that were installed when it was built. The same will go for the water tank.

[Fishman_Tx]

"it's all about education "
Exactly! Actually more breath is wasted disuading someone than educating them!

"....I like the way you think."
Birds of a feather.....

So your another of those old retired Army fart?
So'm I.. (USA/USAF ret)

[anjou]

so what your saying is..............if your an office type weekend sailor who can only flick a duster round the saloon for maintenence, then either walk away and buy a tupperware boat or get a surveyor to tell you how much of a money pit a leaky teaky type is. BUT, ....if your a fixer up type craftyperson, and you can get a decent hull and super structure at the right price, dont bother with a surveyor coz your gonna trash the guts of the boat and start over anyway. You dont need a surveyor to tell you the lectrics and plumbing are 30 years old and shot coz they are heading for the dumpster anyway. Masts and rigging are expensive, but to me, an engine block with ancillaries is easy to rebuild and cheap too if its one of the common types like a Perky. After that, its the price of teak and mahogany that scares me. Stainless fixings, copper wire, epoxy paints might necessitate a bank robbery as will the electronic boys toys gismo thingies. Theres bound to be a thriving boat jumble market on fleabay, but holding up a project in the hope of purchasing items cheap is a fools errand. It can take months to win the exact item you need. From my perspective, the problem with a cheap US boat lies with where to put it, work on it, how to get it there and even the equiping just to get it there if it goes by sea, assuming its fit to sail. Maybe do as Geoff S did with Diva and do the refit somewhere cheaper like Trinidad, but as i would be doing it, i would need to be able to live there for more than a 6 month visa would allow. Bringing it back to the eurozone incurs transport costs/problems and taxation, although, it would be easier to carry out the work to EU standards.