Full keel, fin keel, or no keel (lifting keel/centerboard) for heavy weather and brea

[Cadence]

It doesn't make much difference, it's the GM that counts. The difference between the center of gravity and that of the center of buoyancy.

[goboatingnow]

Anyone that’s been in a serious storm ( >= F10) , I have ,will know that the keel design is meaningless. Each keel type has strengths and weaknesses. Hove to in a small boat is a form of throwing dice , you can get all 1s. Personally I prefer active sailing techniques, jogging , drouges and so forth.

Personally fin keel and spade rudder is hydrodynamically the best combination , good hydro dynamics is what you want in an ocean storm

But as was pointed out , buy a boat for the 90% likely conditions not the 10%

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I own a true full-keel boat.

I like it for what it does well; tracks straight, heaves-to easily, is easy on the helm when balanced, protects rudder and prop during groundings.

I dislike it for what it does poorly; mainly turns like a Mack truck, so sucks in tight quarters. Also has a lot of wetted surface, so slower to get going and obviously slow in light airs. Also takes a lot more bottom paint!

When buying this boat I did not choose it for its keel. My preferred keel would be some sort of modified fin with a skeg-hung rudder. But as others have said, it's meaningless to look at a keel on its own. It's all part of the hull form and function. Look for well designed and well built boats. The keel is only one aspect of this full picture.

As in all things boat it will involve tradeoffs and you covered it pretty well.

My first boat, full keel (although shallow) was amazing to heave to. Tracked well but didn't point well at all and maneuvered like a barge. Second boat, modified fin keel, much better sailor, very maneuverable but never could get it to heave to reliably.

So one has to choose which is the most important in a boat.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Hove to in a small boat is a form of throwing dice , you can get all 1s. Personally I prefer active sailing techniques, jogging , drouges and so forth.

I think most experienced sailors would agree. Heaving to in a really bad storm could be a really bad idea.

However, in more moderate conditions heaving to is a great way to stop the boat and minimize motion for a while to cook, do repairs or just for a break. I've done this in strong F6 and it was brilliant.

[adjo]

Originally Posted by clakiep

Daggerboard or extendable keels only have advantages for navigating shallow waters, and for nothing else.

Capt. Claus - ocean tramp of the eighties

Dogmatic statements like this are often based on inexperience and/or ignorance.

Yes, retractable keels and daggerboards allow access to otherwise inaccessible areas which can be great (but can also lead one into temptation!).

The deep ballasted daggerboard on my yacht is located relatively far forward. She balances well when sailing to windward and has good lateral resistance. It also helps prevent the bow getting pushed to leeward by wave action.

As we bear away the board can be raised and the CLR (centre of lateral resistance) moves aft. When running downwind with the board fully raised there is less of a tendency to broach when surfing down the face of breaking waves. Exhilarating but sometimes scary. And of course, the reduced wetted surface area is a bonus.

I'm not suggesting this is the ideal for extreme conditions and I try to avoid bad weather whenever I can but living down here in Tasmania - in the 'roaring forties' - we can expect it to turn nasty quite quickly.

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Boatyarddog, How much of your time is spent Hove To?

And I'm not exactly sure it is more comfortable in a heavy, encapsulated keel?

Nevermind "long keel", what makes an encapsulated keel more comfortable?

But anyhow, it's like I said in a previous post, do you choose your boat for being more comfortable while being hove to when you'll probably rarely have to be hove to? Wouldn't it make more sense choosing a boat which would be more comfortable all the rest of the time? Then you have to decide what make a boat more comfortable? I prefer a boat which has a nice easy motion in all points of sail, doesn't bury the bow and stop going when pointed into the waves, doesn't require the motor whenever the wind is ahead of the beam, and gets to the next port days earlier so I can be comfortably at anchor when my buddies are still trying to beat around that last point of land with the motor on going 2 knots.

Well if your point is that being hove to is " comfortable" then okay.
I don't.
I have encountered that mode.
Everyone should, and know how to implement it.
It's NOT hard to do.

I don't sail offshore, but sail in damn bad weather in the PNW.
The vessel I sail is an encapsulated long keel and fairs very well in heavy weather, as we have a kit load of it, not much area to heave to but my experience is that heavy vessels are more comfortable as weight helps to buffer heavy wave action.

Encapsulated keels don't have keel bolts,
AND Not worried about it Falling off! That's a point many cannot rival.

My last vessel of 12 years was a fin keel, not that heavy, my current is a long keel and feels literally 8 tons better in comfort. Because it is!
Sailed this one 8 yrs now.
As well is that way always ...Comfortable and capable.

The long keel has great tracking ability, along with a mizzen, steering is minimal.
That means less time at the mast, for trim in bad weather.
Easier to solo, which is the way I sail mostly.

I love that configuration.
SV Cloud Duster

[billgewater]

OK. Different keels for different folks. But I do recall one round the world racing yacht actually losing its keel in the south Indian Ocean requiring a naval rescue.
Tony Bullimore, 1996.
So the lesson here is, love your keel. And just don't lose it. Really can ruin a nice day out at sea. Make sure it is well connected.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Boatyarddog

Well if your point is that being hove to is " comfortable" then okay.

I don't.

I have encountered that mode.

Everyone should, and know how to implement it.

It's NOT hard to do.



I don't sail offshore, but sail in damn bad weather in the PNW.

The vessel I sail is an encapsulated long keel and fairs very well in heavy weather, as we have a kit load of it, not much area to heave to but my experience is that heavy vessels are more comfortable as weight helps to buffer heavy wave action.



Encapsulated keels don't have keel bolts,

AND Not worried about it Falling off! That's a point many cannot rival.



My last vessel of 12 years was a fin keel, not that heavy, my current is a long keel and feels literally 8 tons better in comfort. Because it is!

Sailed this one 8 yrs now.

As well is that way always ...Comfortable and capable.



The long keel has great tracking ability, along with a mizzen, steering is minimal.

That means less time at the mast, for trim in bad weather.

Easier to solo, which is the way I sail mostly.



I love that configuration.

SV Cloud Duster

The vast vast vast vast vast majority of fin keeps don’t fall off either

Let’s stop peddling this nonsense that keels fall off. There have been a few well documented failures often where the keels are extreme or were tampered with.

suggesting a long keel doesn’t fall off as an advantage is like quoting an advantage that the Hull floats.

In my opinion most boats can be sailed reasonably comfortably in most seas. I once delivered a long keel across the Atlantic. She rolled like a dog. Often modern boats are so good at sailing they get pushed too hard and this can cause issues.


The spade rudder is unquestionably one of the best hydro dynamically. This is want you want 99.99 % of the time.

Sheesh.

[fourlyons]

The idea that you need a full keel to track well, is just not true. So many other things factor into tracking well then just the keel. Hull shape and proportions, separation between the keel and the rudder, and the distribution of the sails above all have as much, or more an influence.

I sailed a swedish folk boat from California down through the Panama canal and up the east coast. That is a sweet sailing, full keeled sloop, (rigged as a cutter in this case). In large quartering seas, it took large helm corrections to keep her tracking straight, unless I set up the boat to be pulled by the nose, ie. just a poled out jib. And boy could she roll in those conditions. I suspect part of the problem was no separation between the rudder and a very shallow forefoot, but full keel nonetheless.
I have also sailed two Beneteau 50 something sloops from the Caribbean to the US and in both cases the boats tracked very straight, even in quartering seas and rolled a lot less. Their length and speed may have helped, but also I think their fin keel with a separated rudder, far back at the stern also helped.
My present boat is a 40 ft, keel centerboard, cat ketch. The keel is 8 ft long and just 2 ft deep with a center board that drops to 7 ft, and a separated skeg hung rudder. I regularly sail her to Nova Scotia from Maryland, and have been offshore in 12 ft seas and 30 knots on the quarter a handful of times, and she tracks like she's on rails, with little rolling. But still turns in relatively tight circles if I need her to, though not as well as a deep fin/spade I'm sure. The tiller pilot makes tiny corrections in those conditions and the helm is very very light; the rudder is partially balanced. She also heaves to just fine.

[Sam Woodbridge]

For what it’s worth I find this thread excellent. It should be a prerequisite for new boat buyers (kind of joking, but you understand). Years ago some friends of mine almost talked me into buying a full keel sailboat for my first boat. And let me tell you I’m so relieved I didn’t buy one. I was looking at a Jason 30 something and a Westsnail 30 something. Looking back I really wish I was on these forums reading what Wingssail had to say and others.

Some people’s opinions run super deep into a area of their minds that can shut out simple logic. Needless to say, my friends who encouraged me to buy my first boat as a full keel boat. Where in a state of disapproval when they found out I bought a 2018 Beneteua. 38.1 and not once have they visited me in the ten months I’ve had it.

Good luck with your choices OP. And thank you for the tread!

Sam

[Mike OReilly]

At this point I feel the need to say there's nothing wrong with going full-keel, or fuller-keel. There are some advantages, as well as disadvantage. They're not very popular now (some would say, for good reason), but they do offer some benefits.

I wouldn't discount nor prioritize a boat due to its keel -- not unless you have some very specific needs.

[Manateeman]

There is no perfect vessel design, material, nor method of construction.
We chose twin keels and a fully protected rudder in aluminum. Expensive, more wet area but substantial advantages in less draft, strength and tracking.
Fifty years of Boatbuilding and a fluid mechanics teacher who designed fighter aircraft. Sailing with a manatee crew is survivability vs speed.
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark

[MicHughV]

this is like asking.....do you prefer blondes or brunettes...????...not in the known history of mankind, has this question ever been truly answered...
and so too it is with keels...

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Arthurgifford

People with lifting keels say “because there is no keel, the boat will drift sideways when hit by a wave”.

huh? I haven't heard that. Is that to suggest that drifting sideways somehow protects the boat from the force of a breaking wave? I suspect whoever said that has probably not really tested that theory riding out a storm in a boat with a swing keel... broadside to breaking waves.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Don C L

huh? I haven't heard that. Is that to suggest that drifting sideways somehow protects the boat from the force of a breaking wave? I suspect whoever said that has probably not really tested that theory riding out a storm in a boat with a swing keel... broadside to breaking waves.

Certainly not lived to tell us about it