Full keel live aboard cruiser?

[asolmaz]

Originally Posted by Thames 4 Blood

Where to buy.. Europe would be better but USA would be ok. I suspect an Island Packet will be the way to go and the choice in the USA is far better.

How old... I am not afraid of working on a boat but I do not want to buy a fixer upper so condition rather than age matters.

AMEL 54 is good for you ...

[Thames 4 Blood]

Hi and thanks.
The full keel hang up is more an issue of the protected rudder and prop. And also a shallow draft benefit... Otherwise an older fin keel cruiser would suit very well.
The only thing I was never comfortable with on the Jeanneau was the exposed rudder and the cable based steering. I must say that neither gave any problem ever although the rudder was nearly caught in an anchor chain in one incident.
Of all the systems you can't afford to loose at sea the rudder is a biggie...

I like Amels very much but they are a little quirky... A bit too much mechanisation in the sail handling, the layout is not my favourite and I have never sailed a ketch.

Old Rassys... I think that's a very good suggestion but they all have those weird stern cabin V berths. Only the really recent larger boats have an island berth and then I can't afford them and the hull has become very "modern".

I think that I will end up on an Island Packet. I just don't want to pay for one :-)

[asolmaz]

My English is not enough good to explain detailed but i can say that you must try a ketch especially while wind blowing 7+ bofour....
More stabil and comfortable.
Sorry for bad English

[Thames 4 Blood]

As for the gentleman advising light weight boats are better... I have actually sailed the Mesina Straight having circumnavigated Sicily.
The Med can be a fearsome bit of water BUT you are very rarely more than 24hrs from land and that means you have fairly recent weather forecasts. Local conditions can get squally quickly but it's not like Atlantic conditions with 2000 miles of fetch... If you disrespect the Med you are a fool but it is NOT the Pacific.
I may be very wrong but it sounds like you are distilling the words and wisdom of others and offering advice based on that.
The issue of weight is based on 2 things. Strength and motion comfort. I spent 4 days beating north up the Portuguese Atlantic coast in my Jeanneau into 15 to 25 knot headwinds. Trust a man who knows when I tell you that sometimes a deeper v hull is a nice thing to have ;-)

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by Thames 4 Blood

Thanks guys. budget...£250,000 or about 400,000USD Max but less would be better.
Size. Yes, I think 43ft is a bare minimum and would prefer 50ft. I know everyone will disagree but if you haven't been there and lived aboard don't comment and if you have in a smaller boat then I salute you. I know loads of people do and very happily but I won't compromise on a proper double bed, preferably with some head room and I like to have "stuff" on board... Dive gear, compressor, washing machine etc etc. I don't think it makes anyone a hero to live like a caveman. It's right for ME so please don't shout me down. I respect others do it a different way.

43 - 50' was our criteria for a couple to liveaboard. We weren't interested in camping or living in a cave.

Dive gear and a washing machine alone probably dictate closer to 50 than 43.

Your budget is sort of in no mans land. Healthy to buy an older boat and refit. Assume you aren't looking for new.

How about a Hylas 46. Your budget would work well there. Maybe a Hallberg Rassy.

We own a Liberty 458. We've lived aboard for nearly 2 years. Lots of space, 110 lockers, island queen, plenty of light and great build quality.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[ericoh88]

Thames 4 Blood,

I bought a 44' . I could always use another 5' of space like a good Taswell 49'. You will get a good deal if you can get away with USD 180k for

Ta Shing Taswell 49 « Yachts Asia

Put it on hard for some work and take it to the Meds. Very affordable to work on boats in Malaysia - Dalac Marine or Pangkor Marina.

Regards

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Thames 4 Blood

I think that I will end up on an Island Packet. I just don't want to pay for one :-)

I believe with your stated budget, there are many IP's for sale that fall well under your limit. I don't think you will have a problem there, mine for example even though older and smaller I'm sure than what you want was less than 1/4 of your budget.
Now I'm going to make a statement that is going to sound dumb, but IP's are big for their size, you may not need as big an IP as other boats to have the same or similar amount of room.
Of course some say they are portly looking boats as opposed to slim and beautiful, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I like the extra space that comes from being portly.
Deals are out there, and I believe it's getting into buying season in the US, it seems that Florida is where most IP's are for sale, makes sense I guess as they are built there.

[msrcal36]

Cal 2-46. Designed to cruise in comfort. Both Bill Lapworth and Jack Jensen had one built for themselves upon retirement.

[Lokiyawl]

I can certainly agree that there is value in sailing a lighter faster boat since passage times are reduced which can reduce exposure to possible bad weather. I can't however agree that lightly built boats are safer under all circumstances. Crossing Oceans you can get unlucky and get into a survival storm situation and if that happens, self righting ability, watertightness and good ole plain structural strength that can take the crushing power of big breaking waves is important IMO.

James

Originally Posted by Skip JayR

Thames 4 Blood... it is an illusion, that "heavy boats" are safely. The Mediterranean is not a "harmless" big pont sea area. If you'd sail street of Sicily it can be very rough weather with big and choppy waves. In other words: if you can sail with a 40 footer Jeanneau there, it same could take the pacific safely.

If your theory would be correct, we'd not loose every week two ships worldwide ( see annually report by Alliance: AGCS Safety and Shipping Review 2014).

The right formula is: More lighter a boat, more better = safe". So the basic concept. Otherwise Polynesians (with multihulls/proas) or Vikings wouldnt have crossed oceans. What counts is length of a boat and the uplift a hull gives in the segment of bow and stern !

I rember very well, I visited a workshop of Burghard Pieske (born 1944), a solo circumnavigation salor, and very radically in his projects. But not mad, always keeps his activities on high seas on the safe side. - He sailed catamarans, he followed the route of Vikings with a replica of a Viking boat...


...and the Pacific on the route of Captain Blyte and his Bounty cross the Pacific...

Burkgard explained it very simple why light-weighted boats have it more easy in "bad weather" and "heavy seas". They pop up like a bottle or light-weighted piece of cork. Jumping easily on the waves... and not being drowned/overwashed like a heavy piece of wood sucked full of water. Therefor they are safer compared to heavy keel boats.

While a heavy long keel boat is laying deep in the water, and steadily fighting against the elements which can bear the risks to slow down by speed and stuck... and become a victim / play ball of the elements.

If you have the money and budget, think about a "used multihull" as you search for "space". Cruising Catamarans nowadays are very, very safe boats.... enough out there in the range of 200-250 Thousand... These boats will give you all what you want: safetyness (inclusive speed as a safety parameter), space and comfortable accomocation even in bad weater (see the 1st video). - Cats will give you what you want. - A 45-50 foot multihull has much more benefits than a monohull of that size. Only limitation: you shall not pack it overweighted, so the sterns suck deep in the water to loose the "leight weighted cork" effect.

Enjoy the ride on a 50 ft. cat in the Pacific...

Very relaxed sailing under Wind Vane on a 43 ft. cat in the Pacific...

A long keel boat I only would like to take in ice areas to have a very robust hull.

[FamilyVan]

If you like big full keel live aboards, I would strongly consider one of the bigger Hans Christians. They are sexy times ten IMO.

[Trim50]

Crealock designs are great full keel cruisers. Island Packets are nice but known for how slow they are...thus the nickname.

[icemate]

I would suggest looking up some of Bob Perry designed yachts. I sailed solo across the Pacific from the East Coast of US in a Nan-Tai. Simular to Tayana except for an aft berth and head. Rode out some heavy seas with no problem.

[hamburking]

Whitby 42:

Listings at Harris & Ellis Yachts

Whitby boats for sale - YachtWorld

[Lokiyawl]

Well actually there are a few more good things to say about the full keel, rudder hung designs and here is one that comes to mind. The rudder post can be canted so that the lower end of the rudder post is forward of the upper portion. While one might correctly point out that the rudder effectiveness is reduced while the vessel is fully upright, it is also true that a flat boat generally does not have any significant helm pressure so this is not a problem. A rudder so raked actually INCREASES in efficiency as the boat is heeled, reaching maximum hopefully at an angle that the boat is generally sailed at. Further because the maximum effectiveness is reached while heeled the ultimate angle of effectiveness extends all of the way to being knocked down. In comparison a vertical (or worse a rudder post raked in the opposite direction with the bottom aft) rudder post might lose all effectiveness if the boat is knocked down, the traditionally raked post will not. What this distills to, is while a modern spade is much more efficient and has many advantages that it can lose effectiveness due to excessive heel, ventilate or stall where a keel hung rudder cannot. In effect to stall a keel hung rudder you have to stall the whole boat since the rudder/keel assembly is a variable camber foil. There are plenty of good reasons for the various rudder designs but the old full keel and attached rudder still has some advantages that can pretty nice. All the best, James

Originally Posted by Thames 4 Blood

Hi and thanks.
The full keel hang up is more an issue of the protected rudder and prop. And also a shallow draft benefit... Otherwise an older fin keel cruiser would suit very well.
The only thing I was never comfortable with on the Jeanneau was the exposed rudder and the cable based steering. I must say that neither gave any problem ever although the rudder was nearly caught in an anchor chain in one incident.
Of all the systems you can't afford to loose at sea the rudder is a biggie...

I like Amels very much but they are a little quirky... A bit too much mechanisation in the sail handling, the layout is not my favourite and I have never sailed a ketch.

Old Rassys... I think that's a very good suggestion but they all have those weird stern cabin V berths. Only the really recent larger boats have an island berth and then I can't afford them and the hull has become very "modern".

I think that I will end up on an Island Packet. I just don't want to pay for one :-)

[captmikem]

Kelley Peterson 44 and 46 are solid, center cockpit, modified full keel cruisers with a protected rudder.

I sent you a PM.

Michael