Full Keel Sailboats

[lyl]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Not to belabor or argue the point but to me there is a difference between a long keel and a full keel. If the forefoot is cut away then you are moving toward a long keel but I think of my own as a long keel because it was apparently sculpted that way. A Freya 39 to my eye is a full keel boat with the forefoot trimmed away. But then a Pearson Ariel I'd call that a long keel and an Albin Vega... well I am not sure where to put that one. So anyway if you look at a Columbia 50, is that a fin keel or a long keel that had the rudder separated?
So maybe I missed it, but what feature of fullness are you aiming at? Comfort? Seaworthiness? Seakindliness? Roominess?
No criticism intended here, just clarification.
Anyway, given your initial post I bet you're headed toward a Nor'sea 27 or a Vancouver 27/28, or Cape Dory 28 (though I think the 30 may be a better choice personally)

hey man, don't worry about this comment.

[lyl]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Full, this is what I was getting at in my recent post asking what YOU mean when you say you must have a full keel... and you still haven't addressed that issue.

You are getting suggestions that include all the variants that Don mentions. You ask for help in trimming out unsuitable examples. For any of us to do that meaningfully, ya gotta answer the question. Any chance that you might do that for us?

Jim

hey, don't worry about it no more. i think i'll be just fine.

[lyl]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

I have a Westsail 28. Before that a Hallberg-Rassy 35. before that a Ingrid 38...all full keels. Two things to remember. A full keel is not necessarily a beginner boat. A 28 ft. is 34 with bowsprit the 38 was 46 with bowsprit. They can be real tricky docking. You could buy a Catalina 27 for $3K and see what you like. But if you want pricesand you are a beginner, I'll assume that you do not want to start with a project. A turnkey Westsail 28 will set you back about $20-$25K. A Pearson Triton for $10K turnkey. A Baba 30 for $40-$50K. Hope this helps.

yes, this helps a lot. ty.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Full

hey, don't worry about it no more. i think i'll be just fine.

ahh, well I guess we got our answer then

[lyl]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

The division of full keel, long keel, cut-away forefoot, etc is pretty fuzzy. I would take something like the Ingrid 38 as a full keel, which is to say that the bottom of the keel is carried far forward - enough so that the boat can sit on its keel. My Cape George 31 is often referred to as a full keel boat but I think that is misleading: it has the stem curve aft as it hits the waterline and continues aft and down until about the mast, where it flattens into the bottom of the keel. The CG31 cannot sit on its keel without support under the bow as she will tip onto her nose otherwise. (I have argued with travel lift operators who insisted it wasn't necessary, only to discover that it is. The curve is very deceptive.) I am not talking about a cutaway forefoot, where there is a bit of concave to the profile; it is convex but just takes its sweet time curving aft and down. As with so much else, it is a compromise: by not carrying the keel low to far forward the wetted surface area is reduced, for lower drag, and she can turn a bit easier, at the cost of not tracking quite as well (she does track well though). Personally I would not want to go to the extreme of a nearly plumb stem and straight keel for most of the length. The Westsail 32 has a similar profile, though closer to a full length keel.

Another issue with these classic designs is the beam versus ballast. My CG31 has a narrow beam (9-1/2 feet) and so uses a lot of lead ballast (7500 lbs) to provide stability. Initially she is a bit tippy but once heeled she is exceedingly stable. The Westsail 32 has an 11 ft beam, and so has more hull form stability but uses less ballast (7000 lbs). She is a bit less tippy initially thanks to the beam, but the ultimate stability will be only slightly less from the lesser ballast. The extra 1-1/2 ft beam translates into a lot more room below. OTOH the CG31's narrower beam should give it an advantage sailing to weather (I believe it does from my experience). Downwind the beamier boat should carry a spinnaker better. Admittedly these distinctions are small compared to the differences between full and fin keels, and speed is relative: if you are in a hurry take a jetliner.

Greg

okay.

[lyl]

Originally Posted by 4eyes

O.P. = original poster

One thing I forgot is that I am a sucker for cutters. I could see myself with a ketch or yawl, so long as they had a foresail and staysail.

yeah, people here are very helpful

[lyl]

Originally Posted by Don C L

ahh, well I guess we got our answer then

i guess. i'll start a new comment that titles, how complicated we can make the full keel concept.
every full keel on every boat will have its own characteristics. when the time comes, do you think i'll find something exactly what i want in the used boat market? if i want something in good condition, i'll have to make a couple of compremises. ideally, i want a 27 - 32 full keel with well protected rudder... not a modified one, not a long one either... then again when the time comes, i'll have to compremise - a little. so i was not trying to be rude, i just didnt want to waste your time for all the details today. sorry if i offended you. i mean when it is the time, i think both full and long keels will put a big smile on my ugly face. but i'd prefer full.. but then again...

[lyl]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Full, this is what I was getting at in my recent post asking what YOU mean when you say you must have a full keel... and you still haven't addressed that issue.

You are getting suggestions that include all the variants that Don mentions. You ask for help in trimming out unsuitable examples. For any of us to do that meaningfully, ya gotta answer the question. Any chance that you might do that for us?

Jim

jim, as don might agree, my earlier reponse sounded a bit on the rude side. that was not my intention. as i explained to him, ideally, i'd like to own a 27-32ft full keel sailboat with a well protected rudder. when it is time to buy, according to what good condition used boats i can find, i'm guessing i'll have to compremise a bit. i might have to say ok to a long keel or something like that... so too early to worry about all the details. that's what i meant to say. for example, i'd prefer a tiller, but i'll probably compremise on that too... a few of the recommended boats had fin keels, i'd weed them out. but a long keel with a protected rudder will probably stay on my list. the again who knows what i'll come across when i shop for one.

[CarinaPDX]

But why? Why do you want a full keel, as opposed to just a long one? Aesthetics? Is there something about the performance? Frankly it seems odd that you are so quick to dismiss some really great boats because they don't have a full-enough keel. As for finding a good boat for under $100k fully prepared that shouldn't be difficult at all. You could buy all of the Westsail 32's for a fleet at under $40k each, and with some negotiating no doubt less.

Greg

[lyl]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

But why? Why do you want a full keel, as opposed to just a long one? Aesthetics? Is there something about the performance? Frankly it seems odd that you are so quick to dismiss some really great boats because they don't have a full-enough keel. As for finding a good boat for under $100k fully prepared that shouldn't be difficult at all. You could buy all of the Westsail 32's for a fleet at under $40k each, and with some negotiating no doubt less.

Greg

greg, i actually wrote a longer response earlier, but it just says 'okay.' dunno how i managed to do that.
i'll quote part of what i wrote to jim. i pretty much replied you the same...
'ideally, i'd like to own a 27-32ft full keel sailboat with a well protected rudder. when it is time to buy, according to what good condition used boats i can find, i'm guessing i'll have to compremise a bit. i might have to say ok to a long keel or something like that... for example, i'd prefer a tiller, but i'll probably compremise on that too... a long keel with a protected rudder will probably stay on my short list. the again who knows what i'll come across when i start to shop for one.'
i agree, westsail 32 would be such an amazing sailboat for me.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/69/9b...7c0d60fd3d.jpg

[Jim Cate]

which is to say that the bottom of the keel is carried far forward - enough so that the boat can sit on its keel. My Cape George 31 is often referred to as a full keel boat but I think that is misleading: it has the stem curve aft as it hits the waterline and continues aft and down until about the mast, where it flattens into the bottom of the keel. The CG31 cannot sit on its keel without support under the bow as she will tip onto her nose otherwise. (I have argued with travel lift operators who insisted it wasn't necessary, only to discover that it is.

Greg, that's an interesting point... balancing on the keel. I thought all "full keel" designs would do that.

And FWIW, my fin keel boat balances on her keel quite stably... enough so that when we slip her on a slipway we don't put any props under bow or stern... and we live aboard whilst on the hard! And we have "discussions" with slip masters, too!

The original owners of our boat (folks who actually built her) careened her on a beach in Alaska some years back. Braver than me, but such activities are usually said only to be feasible with more traditional designs, and this demonstrates that it is not so. (Not that I'd like to do such a thing, but it is nice to know that it is possible in extremis).

Now back to the search for the OP's dream boat...

Jim

[Benz]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

The division of full keel, long keel, cut-away forefoot, etc is pretty fuzzy. I would take something like the Ingrid 38 as a full keel, which is to say that the bottom of the keel is carried far forward - enough so that the boat can sit on its keel. My Cape George 31 is often referred to as a full keel boat but I think that is misleading: it has the stem curve aft as it hits the waterline and continues aft and down until about the mast, where it flattens into the bottom of the keel. The CG31 cannot sit on its keel without support under the bow as she will tip onto her nose otherwise. (I have argued with travel lift operators who insisted it wasn't necessary, only to discover that it is. The curve is very deceptive.) I am not talking about a cutaway forefoot, where there is a bit of concave to the profile; it is convex but just takes its sweet time curving aft and down. As with so much else, it is a compromise: by not carrying the keel low to far forward the wetted surface area is reduced, for lower drag, and she can turn a bit easier, at the cost of not tracking quite as well (she does track well though). Personally I would not want to go to the extreme of a nearly plumb stem and straight keel for most of the length. The Westsail 32 has a similar profile, though closer to a full length keel.

Another issue with these classic designs is the beam versus ballast. My CG31 has a narrow beam (9-1/2 feet) and so uses a lot of lead ballast (7500 lbs) to provide stability. Initially she is a bit tippy but once heeled she is exceedingly stable. The Westsail 32 has an 11 ft beam, and so has more hull form stability but uses less ballast (7000 lbs). She is a bit less tippy initially thanks to the beam, but the ultimate stability will be only slightly less from the lesser ballast. The extra 1-1/2 ft beam translates into a lot more room below. OTOH the CG31's narrower beam should give it an advantage sailing to weather (I believe it does from my experience). Downwind the beamier boat should carry a spinnaker better. Admittedly these distinctions are small compared to the differences between full and fin keels, and speed is relative: if you are in a hurry take a jetliner.

Greg

I take my CG31 for a full-keel for most discussions, though I agree she's more of a 7/8 or so, if hairs are to be split. That gradual slope aft is actually pretty useful for drying her out on a sandbar, since most sandbars have a gentle slope as well. I can put her aground and prop her up with posts under the chainwales and scrape some barnacles between tides. It's interesting that yours won't sit on her keel--mine is just outside my window right now with two blocks under the keel and four boat stands and no support forward of the house. Perhaps our weight distribution is different--mine usually rides a little high by the bows.

[NormanMartin]

Maybe time for this old guy to start buying full keel/long keel boats are restoring them for guys like the OP, Full? I can do the work.

After years of following this forum, the desire does not seem to be diminishing. Many models from which to choose. There seem to be buyers.

Keep well, all.

[searoom]

Check out the Alberg 30 built until 1987. Carl Alberg is responsible for many of the Cape Dory designs.
We love the full keel with protected prop and rudder.
Keeps the lobster pots away!

[AA3JY]

Originally Posted by Full

Hi, I live in the US, and I've decided that my first sailboat will be a 27-31 ft full keel design. *My mind is set with the full keel, so if you are against it, just please kindly pass to the next thread - I know the cons and pros, so no lectures please.* I think it'll have to be used; as far as I know there are no brand new ones manufactured anymore - in the desired size range. What brands should I consider? How much should I expect to spend total - including repairs and such - to have a safe, nice sailboat with least amount of problems? What issues I might encounter? I've seen a few IP27/29/31-s on sale, are they any good? And anything that you would like to advise, I would love to hear... TY all in advance.

Looked at a couple dozen IP’s in our search for a new boat..even visited the IP factory,at that time..but fell in love with Cabo Rico 34 the very first time..and after 15 years we are still in love her and cruise 6 months out of the year and has brought us through some very tough weather conditions in one piece.. Highly recommended if one can find one in good shape