Full Keel Sailboats

[lyl]

Jim,
I've just been able to make time for this. Since you seemed to be genuinely interested in helping me, I've decided to give detailed background info about myself; you asked for it, and it might help someone else one day as well...
I'm 42 yrs old, married, living in the Midwest. No kids, a small dog. My profession lets me do my job anywhere in the world. We'll be relocating to Florida, South Carolina, or Georgia, by the ocean; we should've already moved, but the Pandemic has posponed the plans. For this portion, I don't want to give any more info; I'd like to focus on my sailing experience from this point and on...
I grew up by the Med Sea. I sailed old dingies. No info on brands or anything in that manner that I can remember, some old dingies with various lateen or crab claw sails - mostly fixed up, probably converted into sailboats, and such...
Here, in the Midwest, I rented a couple of Sunfish boats from time to time. The biggest achivement of my sailing advenditures was renting a Windrider 17. I also managed to install a Crab Claw sail rig on an old canoe and built an outrigger fast vessel out of it once...
My sailing experience is pretty much what I've mentioned above.
When I shared my dreams of owning a sailboat to my wife, her response was, 'no way!' Then we watched some Youtube videos of people sailing to the Bahamas together, and she started to like the idea. Her favorite sailboat has ended up being one of those 40 - 50 ft luxury catamarans though...
The current plan in my head is to join a sail club when we move. Take sailing classes, rent sailboats and such, and then buy a 27-something-ft full / long keel sailboat - an IP27, for example. In the future, I wanna cross the Atlantic on a bigger sailboat, but no need to worry about that now. My first goal is to sail to the Bahamas. I thought a boat like IP27 could let me learn the ropes and even take my wife and me to the Bahamas when the right time arrived. My motto is taking baby steps, doing my homework, gaining experience, and trying to make wise financial decisions as sailing seems as if it can easily turn into an endless money pit...
Right now, I am dieting, working out, and trying to learn as much as possible about sailboats. Before we move, I want to learn how to fix marine diesels at least - anything that I can do on land to prepare me to our future endevaours and new ambitions...
Let me know about what else you'd like to know...
Thanks, man.

[sandy stone]

After 166 posts, I'll venture into the discussion here. And thank you, OP for an informative post above.

IMHO, if you want to live your dream, forget the focus on keel styles. Find a boat your wife will like to go on, not one you have to convince her to go on.

Sorry, I know it's none of my business, and I apologize. That's just reality as I see it.

[Don C L]

You know Full, if I may, as a married man with a wife who is open and willing, though not really fired up about sailing, I would suggest your first job is not to nail down a particular size or design of boat, but to help your wife fall in love with the sea, and then with the thrill of making a boat go with some ropes and cloth. Going out to see whales and dolphins also REALLY helps. Her enjoyment of the whole experience will determine success here more than a boat will. There are some good simple daysailers that you can sit inside of (as opposed to on top of) that some learners find more reassuring and they perform really well, as you probably know. If she goes out with you and you can help her to just hold the tiller and pull in the main sheet, and if her eyes light up and a big smile comes to her face as you heel and accelerate, then soon she will be the one bugging YOU to get a bigger boat.
I always liked this quote from Antoine de Saint-Exupery:
“If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea.”

[lyl]

Originally Posted by sandy stone

After 166 posts, I'll venture into the discussion here. And thank you, OP for an informative post above.

IMHO, if you want to live your dream, forget the focus on keel styles. Find a boat your wife will like to go on, not one you have to convince her to go on.

Sorry, I know it's none of my business, and I apologize. That's just reality as I see it.

No need for apologies, you're more than welcome to say whatever you feel like to. my story is out there now anyway. I appreciate your opinions. It's all good...
I don't know if - let's say a Leopard - a 50ft catamaran would be a good beginner sailboat. After a good amount of experience in my belt, I may consider. Not now...
You see, an old catamaran would not help my situation either... So, yeah, there will be good amount of convincing in the near future - until we are ready and knowlegable enough for such a large boat.

[lyl]

Originally Posted by Don C L

You know Full, if I may, as a married man with a wife who is open and willing, though not really fired up about sailing, I would suggest your first job is not to nail down a particular size or design of boat, but to help your wife fall in love with the sea, and then with the thrill of making a boat go with some ropes and cloth. Going out to see whales and dolphins also REALLY helps. Her enjoyment of the whole experience will determine success here more than a boat will. There are some good simple daysailers that you can sit inside of (as opposed to on top of) that some learners find more reassuring and they perform really well, as you probably know. If she goes out with you and you can help her to just hold the tiller and pull in the main sheet, and if her eyes light up and a big smile comes to her face as you heel and accelerate, then soon she will be the one bugging YOU to get a bigger boat.
I always liked this quote from Antoine de Saint-Exupery:
“If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea.”

Well, Don, this didn't help. We are in the middle of the good old Midwest, and we've shelved all the travelling plans due to Covid. I had the similar idea, but...
Anyhow. I'd like to focus on what I can do these days, like learning about marine diesels and reading about sailing...
I think Youtube really has helped in the name of committing her heart to sailing and making this 'our' dream.
Here is my plan. When we move, we'll attend classes, rent small sailboats here and there. Then I wanna buy a 27ft full / long keel. It'll be comfortable, safe to sail, and this and that. At that point, I'm planning to charter something like a Gemini a couple of times. Then we'll both see how it feels like to sail on two different worlds. Then we can think about what'll be the next thing.
If she hates sailing, then I'll have a weekend sailboat and a hobby of my own - Something I want at least. Also, buying a used 27 full keel and then selling it later on probably won't break the bank...

[goboatingnow]

Focus on the wife. Don’t sweat the boat

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Full

Jim,
I've just been able to make time for this. Since you seemed to be genuinely interested in helping me, I've decided to give detailed background info about myself; you asked for it, and it might help someone else one day as well...
I'm 42 yrs old, married, living in the Midwest. No kids, a small dog. My profession lets me do my job anywhere in the world. We'll be relocating to Florida, South Carolina, or Georgia, by the ocean; we should've already moved, but the Pandemic has posponed the plans. For this portion, I don't want to give any more info; I'd like to focus on my sailing experience from this point and on...
I grew up by the Med Sea. I sailed old dingies. No info on brands or anything in that manner that I can remember, some old dingies with various lateen or crab claw sails - mostly fixed up, probably converted into sailboats, and such...
Here, in the Midwest, I rented a couple of Sunfish boats from time to time. The biggest achivement of my sailing advenditures was renting a Windrider 17. I also managed to install a Crab Claw sail rig on an old canoe and built an outrigger fast vessel out of it once...
My sailing experience is pretty much what I've mentioned above.
When I shared my dreams of owning a sailboat to my wife, her response was, 'no way!' Then we watched some Youtube videos of people sailing to the Bahamas together, and she started to like the idea. Her favorite sailboat has ended up being one of those 40 - 50 ft luxury catamarans though...
The current plan in my head is to join a sail club when we move. Take sailing classes, rent sailboats and such, and then buy a 27-something-ft full / long keel sailboat - an IP27, for example. In the future, I wanna cross the Atlantic on a bigger sailboat, but no need to worry about that now. My first goal is to sail to the Bahamas. I thought a boat like IP27 could let me learn the ropes and even take my wife and me to the Bahamas when the right time arrived. My motto is taking baby steps, doing my homework, gaining experience, and trying to make wise financial decisions as sailing seems as if it can easily turn into an endless money pit...
Right now, I am dieting, working out, and trying to learn as much as possible about sailboats. Before we move, I want to learn how to fix marine diesels at least - anything that I can do on land to prepare me to our future endevaours and new ambitions...
Let me know about what else you'd like to know...
Thanks, man.

G'Day Full,

Thanks so much for the background info, and the better description of your goals. And yes, I'm happy to offer whatever help I can to further your progress.

I think your plan, once you have relocated to a sailing friendly environment, is quite workable. Hopefully there will be a useful club wherever you end up, one that encourages folks to build their skills without the encumbrance of buying and maintaining their own boat (at first). A combination of sailing on OPBs and some instruction (either professional or from fellow sailors) is a good route to rapid and affordable skill building.

I expect that if you follow that route, you might well discard your insistence upon a full keel design for your first boat. A little experience will demonstrate that for the Bahamas/coastal cruising phase the keel type simply does not matter, and that relaxing your criteria will open up a much larger field of potential vessels for your consideration.

No matter what type of boat that first one might be, the experience that you gain sailing and cruising in her will equip you with the knowledge to choose the next one, your first passage making boat... and without needing to ask this bunch of strangers what you should buy. IMO it is a far better approach to ask us for an opinion on a specific design rather than "what should I buy", for that will lead you down a rabbit hole (as you may have noted). It may be that you still favor a full keel design, but equally, you may not... but at least your thoughts will be guided by reality, not by hearsay.

Enough! I'm quite happy to discuss further ideas with you, and I'm sure that there are other CFers who share that feeling... so ask away. And good luck with the relocation. I've never lived on the East coast (of the USA) so won't offer advice about where to go, but I will offer that going to an area where one can sail year round is a huge advantage in your learning process. I did my "apprenticeship" on the SF bay where we sailed all year, and honestly, I can't imagine living somewhere that requires putting the boat on the hard all winter. YUCK!

Again, thanks for the response...

Jim

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Full

Well, Don, this didn't help. We are in the middle of the good old Midwest, and we've shelved all the travelling plans due to Covid. I had the similar idea, but...
Anyhow. I'd like to focus on what I can do these days, like learning about marine diesels and reading about sailing...
I think Youtube really has helped in the name of committing her heart to sailing and making this 'our' dream.
Here is my plan. When we move, we'll attend classes, rent small sailboats here and there. Then I wanna buy a 27ft full / long keel. It'll be comfortable, safe to sail, and this and that. At that point, I'm planning to charter something like a Gemini a couple of times. Then we'll both see how it feels like to sail on two different worlds. Then we can think about what'll be the next thing.
If she hates sailing, then I'll have a weekend sailboat and a hobby of my own - Something I want at least. Also, buying a used 27 full keel and then selling it later on probably won't break the bank...

Any lakes nearby?
So in that plan I can recommend my boat.. well not MY boat but the Columbia 29. Chances are one in good shape will not break the bank as you say and it will perform better than most or all other long/full keel 27-30 footers. (I'm sure I'll get some challenges to a duel on that one.)

[lyl]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Focus on the wife. Don’t sweat the boat

I hear what you say, but for me to be able to pursue this dream, I'll have to learn how to sail. I mean I have to start somewhere. My dingy sailing 'endevaurs' were all experienced alone. I can go crazy and buy a brand new 40 ft catamaran and sail to the Bahamas. But before being able to even charter one, I have to learn how to sail. You know I can buy a 27 ft keel, and my wife might probably refuse put her feel on it, ever. But I'll learn the ropes thanks to that little boat and with that experience take her to a charter weekend. Here is what I want to figure out. Maybe I might just drop the 27 ft plans, and buy an old Catalina 22 - so that I can learn and gain experience before taking her to a charter weekend to see she'll like it. That's why I considered a 27 long keel, cause she might as well like it better. Who knows... I'll have to buy some sort of first sailboat here right? an old 22 or an old 27? will it make a big difference? I think everybody is agree that it shouldn't be a Leopard 50...

[JPA Cate]

Don't charter a catamaran if you want to sail monohulls. Charter a monohull, so that your wife's experience is in the same kind of boat as you prefer to have. Chartering a cat will set up very different expectations. It will help her to accept from the beginning that heeling is natural. It strikes some people as scary, but it is just the boat yielding to the breeze and the waves, and all is well. The keel really wants to point towards the center of the earth. Cats tend to have small, sort of snappy motion, and monos yield differently.

If you follow through with your plan for a starter boat, every decision you make jointly with your wife will help to build her involvement. She will benefit from learning to sail either by sailing with a variety of skippers in a crew position, or by classes that are separate from yours. If you use the Custom Google Search under the Search button, you can find a number of threads relative to why wives do better learning separately from their husbands.

All for now,

Ann

[lyl]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Any lakes nearby?
So in that plan I can recommend my boat.. well not MY boat but the Columbia 29. Chances are one in good shape will not break the bank as you say and it will perform better than most or all other long/full keel 27-30 footers. (I'm sure I'll get some challenges to a duel on that one.)

No big enough nearby lakes, most are at least a few hours drive away. My outrigger canoe though was a great fit to the nearby lakes, and it was fast, very fast.
I'll keep columbia 29 in mind. Yep, something like that. Something I can learn the ropes on, but at the sametime, something that can take us to the Bahamas one day as well - until we are ready to step up...
TY.

[lyl]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

G'Day Full,

Thanks so much for the background info, and the better description of your goals. And yes, I'm happy to offer whatever help I can to further your progress.

I think your plan, once you have relocated to a sailing friendly environment, is quite workable. Hopefully there will be a useful club wherever you end up, one that encourages folks to build their skills without the encumbrance of buying and maintaining their own boat (at first). A combination of sailing on OPBs and some instruction (either professional or from fellow sailors) is a good route to rapid and affordable skill building.

I expect that if you follow that route, you might well discard your insistence upon a full keel design for your first boat. A little experience will demonstrate that for the Bahamas/coastal cruising phase the keel type simply does not matter, and that relaxing your criteria will open up a much larger field of potential vessels for your consideration.

No matter what type of boat that first one might be, the experience that you gain sailing and cruising in her will equip you with the knowledge to choose the next one, your first passage making boat... and without needing to ask this bunch of strangers what you should buy. IMO it is a far better approach to ask us for an opinion on a specific design rather than "what should I buy", for that will lead you down a rabbit hole (as you may have noted). It may be that you still favor a full keel design, but equally, you may not... but at least your thoughts will be guided by reality, not by hearsay.

Enough! I'm quite happy to discuss further ideas with you, and I'm sure that there are other CFers who share that feeling... so ask away. And good luck with the relocation. I've never lived on the East coast (of the USA) so won't offer advice about where to go, but I will offer that going to an area where one can sail year round is a huge advantage in your learning process. I did my "apprenticeship" on the SF bay where we sailed all year, and honestly, I can't imagine living somewhere that requires putting the boat on the hard all winter. YUCK!

Again, thanks for the response...

Jim

I agree, when the time comes, when I'm ready to wire a lump of 20k for example, my mind will be probably thinking way different than today. Still, the keel thingy is a 30 yr old obsession, it'll be hard to break it. despite all, I hope you agree that a 27 long keel won't be a very bad idea.
At the moment, all I want is to learn. I read about the other keel types, and... still, i think the same way.
Maybe a Catalina 22 would be a great choice as the first boat. No voyages to Bahamas, just coastal exprience, by myself. Then chartering monohulls and multihulls to test drive. Maybe I'll be the one who'll want a cat more than anything. who knows...
I guess for now, I better read about marine diesels...
Thanks again.

[lyl]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Don't charter a catamaran if you want to sail monohulls. Charter a monohull, so that your wife's experience is in the same kind of boat as you prefer to have. Chartering a cat will set up very different expectations. It will help her to accept from the beginning that heeling is natural. It strikes some people as scary, but it is just the boat yielding to the breeze and the waves, and all is well. The keel really wants to point towards the center of the earth. Cats tend to have small, sort of snappy motion, and monos yield differently.

If you follow through with your plan for a starter boat, every decision you make jointly with your wife will help to build her involvement. She will benefit from learning to sail either by sailing with a variety of skippers in a crew position, or by classes that are separate from yours. If you use the Custom Google Search under the Search button, you can find a number of threads relative to why wives do better learning separately from their husbands.

All for now,

Ann

Ann,
You should consider becoming a couple's therapist for beginner sailor couples; heeling is exactly what she doesn't like. Watching the videos of heeling fin keels sure doesn't make her very happy. One of the reasons why I want a slow, comfortable long keel that won't heel as wide as the other modern keel designs. That might change her opinion.
She likes the catamaran's large, bright living area. She even didn't like the interiors of Gemini legacy 35 or Seawind 1160. She wants the oven and sink in the middle, not on the side hull. Has to be new as well... So a minimum cat design that can satisfy her requirements would probably be one of those good looking 40 / 42 ft French catamarans - Pajot, Lagoon or something. Youtube videos have already sold them to her. Those designer sure know what they are doing; those boats are marketing marvels.
I want her to feel the difference between cats and full keels. Too early actually to think about these, but I wanna learn and vaguely plan a bit... Who knows I might love cats too. If we decide to just hang around the Bahamas, maybe a Corsair 37... I still remember how fast the Windrider 17 was. I bet Corsair 37 is a blast. Yet again, my heart is stolen by full keels, maybe she will like that too. i dunno, I guess our first charter will answer most of the questions. Maybe before chartering, to get enough exprience, I shall go really cheap, like an old Catalina 22, or maybe a 24 - 25 long keel, no Bahamas on it... Months later, after chartering, things will shape up in my head...
I don't think she will ever take courses. I'll probably learn this alone. That's why I want a small long keel; I can single handedly learn it and then take her to trips.
I hope she'll slowly fall in love with this dream like me, because she is smarter, more talented, stronger, and much more passionate than I can ever be. She'll take me there fast.
I guess for now, I'll find a book about fixing marine diesels...
TY.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Full

One of the reasons why I want a slow, comfortable long keel that won't heel as wide as the other modern keel designs. That might change her opinion.

OOps! If that is the case better take my boat and most other smaller long keel boats off the list. Our boats tend to be on the tender side and heel over to 15 or 20 degrees pretty quick and then settle in, that is just the nature of the old school CCA rule-driven beast. A heavier, initially stable (as in beamier) design in the 27 foot range would be... let's see, Westsail 28 probably, or the Vancouvers I suppose but I have never sailed them.

[lyl]

Originally Posted by Don C L

OOps! If that is the case better take my boat and most other smaller long keel boats off the list. Our boats tend to be on the tender side and heel over to 15 or 20 degrees pretty quick and then settle in, that is just the nature of the old school CCA rule-driven beast. A heavier, initially stable (as in beamier) design in the 27 foot range would be... let's see, Westsail 28 probably, or the Vancouvers I suppose but I have never sailed them.

Don, you understand me so well. Yeah, that was why I was listing the full keels on top.
Westsail 28, Vancouvers... taking notes here... What about IP27?