Full Keel Sailboats

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Full

Don, you understand me so well. Yeah, that was why I was listing the full keels on top.
Westsail 28, Vancouvers... taking notes here... What about IP27?

I haven't sailed one, or seen one, as far as I know, but I have heard or read that they are pretty stiff, as in resistant to heeling. The specs on that design certainly suggest that as well. But the IPs are going to cost you considerably more and though they may be more resistant to heeling, they WILL heel. I think once you get your wife comfortable with the physics behind heeling and ballast and she gains confidence that heeling definitely does NOT mean the boat is turning over, and that it is a normal part of monohull sailing, this will be less of an issue. I think the cat boats like the Nonsuch are pretty stiff too and they are easier to sail too, but they probably won't be cheap and they are fin keels. Just as an FYI:
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/nonsuch-30
That's a boat I have always wanted to sail but have never had the chance yet. That is a really roomy boat for its length too.

[lyl]

Originally Posted by Don C L

I haven't sailed one, or seen one, as far as I know, but I have heard or read that they are pretty stiff, as in resistant to heeling. The specs on that design certainly suggest that as well. But the IPs are going to cost you considerably more and though they may be more resistant to heeling, they WILL heel. I think once you get your wife comfortable with the physics behind heeling and ballast and she gains confidence that heeling definitely does NOT mean the boat is turning over, and that it is a normal part of monohull sailing, this will be less of an issue. I think the cat boats like the Nonsuch are pretty stiff too and they are easier to sail too, but they probably won't be cheap and they are fin keels. Just as an FYI:
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/nonsuch-30
That's a boat I have always wanted to sail but have never had the chance yet. That is a really roomy boat for its length too.

the most expensive IP27 I've found is from late 80s with a price tag of 40k. it looked brand new, clean, had pressure hot/cold water, ac, large comfy head, and etc... photos looked great. something like that in good condition would be a perfect first sailboat for me.

[lyl]

Originally Posted by Don C L

I haven't sailed one, or seen one, as far as I know, but I have heard or read that they are pretty stiff, as in resistant to heeling. The specs on that design certainly suggest that as well. But the IPs are going to cost you considerably more and though they may be more resistant to heeling, they WILL heel. I think once you get your wife comfortable with the physics behind heeling and ballast and she gains confidence that heeling definitely does NOT mean the boat is turning over, and that it is a normal part of monohull sailing, this will be less of an issue. I think the cat boats like the Nonsuch are pretty stiff too and they are easier to sail too, but they probably won't be cheap and they are fin keels. Just as an FYI:
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/nonsuch-30
That's a boat I have always wanted to sail but have never had the chance yet. That is a really roomy boat for its length too.

Nonsuch is like windsurfing. Cool.
Also maintaining an IP27 around Southeast might be easier. Slow, stable, luxuries like ac, and etc... Everything I look for in a sailboat. I can gain experience on it while being able to sail it to anywhere.
Boats like Catalina 22 or 275 could be great beginner boats too, despite not exactly having the full keel I want - but I don't see a reason why an IP27 wouldn't be a good beginner sailboat instead. Sorry, Jim, my opinion on full keels probably won't change... IP27, it hopefully will...

[hpeer]

I think what you are describing is “initial form stability.”

Something else to remember is how much time you spend sailing as opposed to how much time you spend on the boat.

But also where the boat will be and what will disturb it and your Wife. In the Caribbean the ocean swells can wrap around an island and create surge in the harbor. That will move some boats out pretty quick as it annoys many a great deal. Some places in the USA what you have is motor boaters, big sport fishermen, who run up the channel dragging an enormous wake. And that can really upset you because it is so random and sharp.

High displacement boats, typically long full keel, have momentum in their favor.

I have and continue to struggle with some of these same challenges. The fact is neither you nor your Post Wife can accurately predict what will work and what will be annoying beyond belief. Sure there are some guidelines that will tend this way or that but no sure bets.

Dont torture yourself looking for the “perfect” boat, make it good enough to learn on, get comfortable handing it yourself and then introduce your wife to it. Be prepared to change boats to meet her needs, be prepared for her needs to change as her appreciation matures. At one time and for some years my Wife was sold on cats, not so now. There is no telling what lies ahead, remain flexible.

Good luck.

[thomm225]

All the planning in the world also will not prepare you for the ocean swell.......meaning possible seasickness.

Many here can handle the upper 100 miles of Chesapeake Bay fine but when getting down here where bay meets ocean, the ocean swell comes in to play and can cause seasickness in some.

So if you have a partner/crew/wife that may not be totally on board the seasickness could be a deal breaker. Make sure she takes dramamine first time in the ocean or near it.

As has been mentioned, just get something to learn on and see how it goes. There are tons of unused sailboats at every Marina due to dreams that have died. Some of these boats are very expensive and not used at all. Slip fee here is $9.00/ft/month.

I learned sailing inland in Tennessee and Mississippi racing beach cats in small TVA Lakes but had boating experience because I grew up here fishing/skiing/hunting on the Chesapeake Bay and Atlantic Ocean.

Also learning on a small boat teaches you sailing the best because they are harder to handle especially if the wind gets up. You make a mistake you can end up in the water. When you pull a "string" something happens immediately on a small boat whereas on a larger boat it could take 40 seconds before the change occurs.

I sailed / raced for 5 years up there in Tennessee/Mississippi before moving to the Gulf Coast then back up here

Sometimes I/we (my son was my crew) raced on the Gulf Coast trailering the boat down to Ft Walton Beach.

Btw folks also raced Lightnings and Thistles on those lakes. They used to race Lightnings inland all around the USA.

A Lightning is a 19' sailboat that's trailerable with mainsail, jib, and spinnaker and has a centerboard.

You could buy one now and start learning where you are.

https://www.lightningclass.org/

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/lightning

[lyl]

Originally Posted by hpeer

I think what you are describing is “initial form stability.”

Something else to remember is how much time you spend sailing as opposed to how much time you spend on the boat.

But also where the boat will be and what will disturb it and your Wife. In the Caribbean the ocean swells can wrap around an island and create surge in the harbor. That will move some boats out pretty quick as it annoys many a great deal. Some places in the USA what you have is motor boaters, big sport fishermen, who run up the channel dragging an enormous wake. And that can really upset you because it is so random and sharp.

High displacement boats, typically long full keel, have momentum in their favor.

I have and continue to struggle with some of these same challenges. The fact is neither you nor your Post Wife can accurately predict what will work and what will be annoying beyond belief. Sure there are some guidelines that will tend this way or that but no sure bets.

Dont torture yourself looking for the “perfect” boat, make it good enough to learn on, get comfortable handing it yourself and then introduce your wife to it. Be prepared to change boats to meet her needs, be prepared for her needs to change as her appreciation matures. At one time and for some years my Wife was sold on cats, not so now. There is no telling what lies ahead, remain flexible.

Good luck.

that's been a 30 yr old torture, and yet, no perfect boat has showed up.

[lyl]

Originally Posted by thomm225

All the planning in the world also will not prepare you for the ocean swell.......meaning possible seasickness.

Many here can handle the upper 100 miles of Chesapeake Bay fine but when getting down here where bay meets ocean, the ocean swell comes in to play and can cause seasickness in some.

So if you have a partner/crew/wife that may not be totally on board the seasickness could be a deal breaker. Make sure she takes dramamine first time in the ocean or near it.

As has been mentioned, just get something to learn on and see how it goes. There are tons of unused sailboats at every Marina due to dreams that have died. Some of these boats are very expensive and not used at all. Slip fee here is $9.00/ft/month.

I learned sailing inland in Tennessee and Mississippi racing beach cats in small TVA Lakes but had boating experience because I grew up here fishing/skiing/hunting on the Chesapeake Bay and Atlantic Ocean.

Also learning on a small boat teaches you sailing the best because they are harder to handle especially if the wind gets up. You make a mistake you can end up in the water. When you pull a "string" something happens immediately on a small boat whereas on a larger boat it could take 40 seconds before the change occurs.

I sailed / raced for 5 years up there in Tennessee/Mississippi before moving to the Gulf Coast then back up here

Sometimes I/we (my son was my crew) raced on the Gulf Coast trailering the boat down to Ft Walton Beach.

Btw folks also raced Lightnings and Thistles on those lakes. They used to race Lightnings inland all around the USA.

A Lightning is a 19' sailboat that's trailerable with mainsail, jib, and spinnaker and has a centerboard.

You could buy one now and start learning where you are.

https://www.lightningclass.org/

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/lightning

i can probably rent something like that.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Full

i can probably rent something like that.

Point is you can learn most all you need to know as far as sailing a boat on a lake near you then you can learn the other stuff when you get to the coast.

We used to hit the lake when heavy weather was coming through just to get the experience also since most everyone else didn't sail on those days.

Rental groups/companies rarely let folks rent their boats when the wind get up to a certain point.

[lyl]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Point is you can learn most all you need to know as far as sailing a boat on a lake near you then you can learn the other stuff when you get to the coast.

We used to hit the lake when heavy weather was coming through just to get the experience also since most everyone else didn't sail on those days.

Rental groups/companies rarely let folks rent their boats when the wind get up to a certain point.

I hear your point but not many close by appropirate lakes around the neighborhood, too shallow... That's why my outrigger canoe did a fantastic job. I think I'd like to know if there are good books that I can read about maintaining, fixing, and learning things about bluewater sailboats...

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Full

I hear your point but not many close by appropirate lakes around the neighborhood, too shallow... That's why my outrigger canoe did a fantastic job. I think I'd like to know if there are good books that I can read about maintaining, fixing, and learning things about bluewater sailboats...

There are books, but when it comes to diesels I think it is probably best to just get a basic "How do diesels work" book and then wait until you get your boat and then focus on that particular diesel and its own set of quirks.
This link may be a good place to start.
https://www.amazon.com/Caseys-Comple.../dp/0071462848

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Full

I hear your point but not many close by appropirate lakes around the neighborhood, too shallow... That's why my outrigger canoe did a fantastic job. I think I'd like to know if there are good books that I can read about maintaining, fixing, and learning things about bluewater sailboats...

Well, every one learns differently but it doesn't take much depth to sail. Maybe 3' of depth for some small boats.

As far as fixing things on a sailboat, it's depends on how complicated the systems are on the boat you buy.

Some folks sail engineless and use small computers.

my boat has an outboard and I have had those since I was a teenager so they are easy to maintain.

Maintaining my boat at least has just involved multiple bottom jobs then I decided to paint the rest of it.

Replaced the mainsail, dodger, autopilots, tiller, cabin lamps, curtains, etc

I replaced the packing in the stuffing box when it had a diesel but after it failed I pulled all that crap out along with the 352 lb diesel.

I didn't read any books on maintaining it. I've had it for 9 years but it's a fairly simple old 27' cutaway full keel blue water cruiser.

I also added solar which powers every thing on my boat. I'm an electronics/computer tech by trade though.......tech manager now

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Don C L

There are books, but when it comes to diesels I think it is probably best to just get a basic "How do diesels work" book and then wait until you get your boat and then focus on that particular diesel and its own set of quirks.
This link may be a good place to start.
https://www.amazon.com/Caseys-Comple.../dp/0071462848

Marine diesels are pretty simple to work on compared car engines.. No computer tech to make life difficult.. I stripped down a Volvo engines cooling system to clear blockages and reassembled using just the owners manual, also have bled fuel systems, cleaned/replaced injectors the same way.
These are the main jobs apart from servicing filters and pumps that you will be doing unless you want to get to changing out the bottom end, pistons, skimming heads etc..
The workshop manual is all you need and laying out the bits in the order you remove them and reverse the procedure when reassembling.

[lyl]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Dont torture yourself looking for the “perfect” boat, make it good enough to learn on, get comfortable handing it yourself and then introduce your wife to it. Be prepared to change boats to meet her needs, be prepared for her needs to change as her appreciation matures. At one time and for some years my Wife was sold on cats, not so now. There is no telling what lies ahead, remain flexible.

Although, I think I've found the perfect boat, IP27. The only thing I don't like is they don't have tiller rudder; I'm not fond of a wheel steering at the size, but definately not a deal breaker. One of them in good condition answers all my needs as a beginner. At 27ft, I have not seen all the luxuries like pressured hot water or AC on other sailboats. Most of the IPs still have clean looking interiors despite their age; their rustic designs will be my selling point. Large heads, and all those listed amenities, most 'advertised' in working condition on ads. If a thrushtworhty surveyor oks a clean looking well maintained one, then I'll be sold at 30 - 40k.
On the half way to the Bahamas, I'd hate to be in a situation where I end up saying, "Honey, by the way, I've decided to be real cheap and save money, so we don't have hot water or AC."
She wants a Leopard 50 and I'll show up at the marina on an old beat up 27ft full keel; I don't think I'm a very wise man, huh?!
My bad jokes aside, my wife is a very positive, loving, and quite reasonable person; she'll probably ok many things as this will only be a beginner boat, not a permenant thing - as long as there is a large clean head, AC, and pressure hot water... And what other 27ft-er will provide them all?

[thomm225]

An IP27 will cost you though and you will still have a slow 27' sailboat. (and the IP27's Capsize screening formula is a tad high at 2.10. Mine is 1.71 by comparison)

The Bristol 29.9 is pretty nice and a lot faster than an IP27.

This one has AC, pressure water, and head with shower. (and is a Bristol so it's a good offshore boat)

There's a couple on CF that is in the Bahamas on theirs right now. They did do a massive refit though. Their boat was here recently so I got to see it at Cobbs Boat Yard which is where mine was in the photos above.

https://adventuresontheclub.com/

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/197...-29-9-3709162/

It's PHRF is 183 whereas the IP27 is 234

[lyl]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

IMO it is a far better approach to ask us for an opinion on a specific design rather than "what should I buy", for that will lead you down a rabbit hole (as you may have noted). It may be that you still favor a full keel design, but equally, you may not...
Jim

Well, I kinda started the post asking about IPs. I still want a full keel by the way. Let's see if my obsession will change in time. I want a slow, stable, and comfortable sailboat. Thanks again, man.