Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by thomm225

As far as the Chesapeake Bay, come hang out near the bridge that divides the Chesapeake from the Atlantic Ocean and you will meet ferocious.... especially during a Nor'easter.

The one time I seriously thought I might lose my boat was during a freak winter storm crossing from Ingram Bay to Norfolk. 45+ knots, wind tunnel effect from the York and Rappahannock turned the bay into a washing machine of big waves the likes of which I've never seen. Considered heading out offshore for some peace and quite but was able to struggle into Hampton.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Matt Rutherford has tons of sailing/cruising experience for his age.

He is unlikely to run a lightly built boat like Vega 27 aground etc while trying to come ashore like some of us that would be new to an unknown entrance

The 27 is a tough little beast. While it's technically not a full keel, with it's cutaway forefoot, it provides most of the advantages of one. The layup is pretty overbuilt for it's size IMHO.

Tidjian, if you have not already, check out Sailboat Reviews of Offshore Cruising Yachts : Bluewaterboats.org which is basically a database of "blue water boats". While not inclusive it provides good summary information on the boats listed.

[kmacdonald]

Tidjian, just go to any marina or storage lot and ask about all the free or near free boats. Pick the best one but don't rush into it. Make sure it is in usable condition with sails, motor, etc. Then sail it for a season or two. That will give you enough experience to know what boat to buy that will meet your needs.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Suijin

It really is all about condition in the end.

^^ This. Regarding the boat by far the greatest factor in 'successful voyaging' is build quality + maintenance/condition.

Sailors love to talk the pros and cons of keels, rigs, displacement, etc . . . but in fact those factors don't amount to a hill of beans (for offshore cruising, obviously they do for racing) - they (if not pushed to stupid extremes) will all easily do the job.

What will effect your chances is if the boat is holding up well or falling down around you.

Unfortunately this factor (quality) is rather harder/more difficult to 'see' in a prospective boat than the keel or rig design.

There is no perfect offshore boat. It does not exist. If one waits for it, one will never ever leave. The perfect is very certainly the enemy of the good here, and there are lots and lots and lots of perfectly good boats that can (and have) do the job perfectly well with a little help from the skipper.

There is one factor that even out-shadows the boat 'quality', which is the skipper's resourcefulness and tenacity. Matt has been mentioned and he is (and has) capable of bring boats safely home which were in fact falling down and breaking up around him - he refused to quit or even temporarily stop. Stan Paris is the opposite - even with $m's in the best custom boats he can barely manage to get past Bermuda without some crisis which he can't resolve.

This skipper factor is, in my opinion, not at all strongly related to sailing or offshore experience/knowledge. I believe it is much more a deeper personality trait. Matt (and also Webb Chiles) had it even when he/they had very very little sailing experience, and Stan still does not have it even after racking up some decent offshore miles.

Like boat quality, this skipper factor is also unfortunately quite hard to assess (self-assess) . . . .do you get better/harder/stronger when the going gets really hard in life or do you melt/quit/run away? Can you make sensible calm thoughtful decisions in emergency conditions or do you panic to the extremes? Are you self-reliant, able to find solutions yourself, to learn stuff quickly on the job; or do you need a pro to fix repair stuff and to only learn when spoon fed?

[kmacdonald]

An Alberg 30 would be a good boat for you. They run about a dime a dozen and are great looking boats. Check out one that Atom rebuilt here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDRrJ_udl7Y

It shows what can be done to an old boat.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Suijin

The one time I seriously thought I might lose my boat was during a freak winter storm crossing from Ingram Bay to Norfolk. 45+ knots, wind tunnel effect from the York and Rappahannock turned the bay into a washing machine of big waves the likes of which I've never seen. Considered heading out offshore for some peace and quite but was able to struggle into Hampton.

I capsized my home made 15' catboat there this spring. A pintle on the rudder broke and the boat spun around like a truck going around a corner too fast and flipped. About 20 kts wind. No 360's or any of that BS, just layed over on her side. I was able to right it and stand in the swamped boat----water was cold. Got a tow back to the ramp. Could have been a lot of fun in a bigger boat.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Tidjian

Also is there a difference between the MK II and the MK1? Because I couldn't even find an MK1 on google.

COLUMBIA 26 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
Columbia 26 Specifications
1966 Columbia MK1 sailboat for sale in North Carolina

[double u]

so this is what it means to buy a long-keeler? a huge refit project???
(I btw what I never understood: how the designer(s) could marry such lovely hullshapes to such boxy, slabsided cabintops)
I love those hulllines (Rhodes 41,...) just as much as the next man, I just don't see the practicability in these boats: first one would be in for a big refit during one might discover who-knows-what, & secondly heelangle up- & rollangle downwind would be much less/more comfortable in a more "modern" design
& as to the safety of a long keel in a grounding: sure there is some validity in that. on some of these longkeelers the bilge aft of the ballast is a deep well, & I read of one boat (I seem to recall an IP, but too long ago...) lost when the keel aft of the ballast was ground through by the reef the boat was agorund on & due to the hullshape & the depth of the "well" the leak could not be reached from inside the boat & she was a goner.

[Tidjian]

Unfortunately there aren't any online listings near me for a Vancouver 27. But again it is winter up here so most people probably aren't pushing to sell their boat til spring. I can't even look at boats in my area right now because most of them have a foot or two of snow on their decks. But I'll continue browsing around. I did find those two Vega 27s for around 10k in good condition from the pictures. I went online earlier and browsed for as many atom list cruisers I could and I found next to none anywhere near me. There were a few scattered from SC to Florida and a few more from WA down to Panama. Several good boats in the UK for surprisingly low prices. But getting there and getting one home puts those far out of reach. As much as I'd love to go boat scouting all across the country I do have to be practical or I'll blow half my budget just traveling around. I'll view what I can near me even if it's not on Atoms list. If I'm lucky come spring more boats will go up for sale. Maybe even some boat yards/marinas have some not listed online. I think I get the general consensus of selecting an offshore boat now. I've also gathered atoms list suggests those that have made several circumnavigations or that are favorable amongst offshore sailors. It doesn't mean there are no other boats not on the list that wouldn't be suitable for the job.

I'll try to prioritize towards full keel boats on the list, then start working down criteria and use the pointers you guys gave me. I'll probably continue picking your brains in the mean time. If the trend I'm seeing on sales within a few hours drive from me continues. I'm going to start thinking finding some of these offshore vessels so near the great lakes might be uncommon. Right now I'm finding tons of fin keels but next to no full keelers. But as you say a lot of the selection will come down to not only price but the quality the boat has remained in. I wouldn't have an issue sinking $10-12k into a boat if she was in impeccable condition, had new sails and good lines/rigging. A working inboard and all the bells and whistles. Having a wind vane steering system or auto pilot would be a huge perk since they seem to run $2-6k alone. I'm considering a lot of things but when it all comes down to it if it's just a bare bone boat with sails and half decent lines/rigging I won't have to replace. My budget is about $5-7k and that means no refit needed or tons of work to get her ready. I still have all those other things to buy and can't depend on getting them at a discount.

[kmacdonald]

Don't waste a lot of money on your first boat because it's not going to be right for you. Save your cash for when you do know what is right and have the time to wait for the right one to come up for sale.

A lot of the lower priced boats aren't listed on YachtWord. Check Craigs List in your area and waterfront areas near you. Check the marinas with land storage, that's where the free boats are.

[double u]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Don't waste a lot of money on your first boat because it's not going to be right for you. Save your cash for when you do know what is right and have the time to wait for the right one to come up for sale.

so true!!! golden words, always to keep in mind!!

[Tidjian]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Don't waste a lot of money on your first boat because it's not going to be right for you. Save your cash for when you do know what is right and have the time to wait for the right one to come up for sale.

A lot of the lower priced boats aren't listed on YachtWord. Check Craigs List in your area and waterfront areas near you. Check the marinas with land storage, that's where the free boats are.

I can agree with that hence why I'm not throwing my life savings into the boat itself. I'd hate to drop every time I have then I ground her on a reef in Hawaii and fly home. The more conservative I go the better equipment I can get and the more money I'll have in the event of needing repairs or simply cost of living. Likewise though I don't want something guaranteed to sink before I get there. If I wanted to take my chances with fate I could just waterproof my Grampian and go bare bones with dry food and water and see if I make it. Would save me an awful lot of money but if I understand ocean dynamics better after meeting you guys. It would be a very uncomfortable and unpleasant ride assuming I have luck and weather on my side.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Tidjian

My budget is about $5-7k and that means no refit needed or tons of work to get her ready. I still have all those other things to buy and can't depend on getting them at a discount.

I found my old full keel boat at a small boat yard on Deep Creek almost directly (a bit North) across the bay on the Eastern Shore from Ingram Bay of which Suijin was speaking of earlier.

I paid $2,000 for it. It was on stands back in the weeds a bit with no for sale sign on it. It had sat on the hard for 5 years basically unattended

I have made no structural repairs and have not replaced the rigging. I bought it in 2011 and have sailed it in the Bay to winds of 30 mph (the forecast was for 20 and I couldn't return so I ran with it from Onancock to Kiptopeke along the East side)

I ended up with a new 2011 extra long shaft outboard ($1,595) on the boat after two failed old diesels. (the original and the one I bought and installed myself) I was trying to get by cheap on a boat that was to be a test for my next larger monohull.

I also replaced the Main sail with one I had made. 8 Oz Dacron ($1,600.00)

Replaced the lifelines with Polyester/Dyneema line that I tied on but that's probably not the best thing to do....

Then added inverters, solar, batteries, two bottom jobs, etc.

It already had 2 sets of main anchors and 40' of chain plus 250' of rode on each and 3 other Danforths

Plus it had a dodger and bimini and was loaded with other stuff because the PO had left it there on his return cruise from Florida to Massachusetts

So, you can start cheap and then maybe sail locally for a couple years as was mentioned earlier and see how the boat does and what it needs

I already had a 16' 6" folding kayak so I have that on deck instead of a dinghy to go ashore with and/or explore

[newhaul]

Here is an islander 30 flush deck close to you.
1967 Islander 33 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
Same as the 32 but flush deck.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Like boat quality, this skipper factor is also unfortunately quite hard to assess (self-assess) . . . .do you get better/harder/stronger when the going gets really hard in life or do you melt/quit/run away? Can you make sensible calm thoughtful decisions in emergency conditions or do you panic to the extremes? Are you self-reliant, able to find solutions yourself, to learn stuff quickly on the job; or do you need a pro to fix repair stuff and to only learn when spoon fed?

I think for most people, they won't know where they fit on this spectrum until they get out there and get some sea miles under their belt. Situations that you encounter offshore can be borderline terrifying the first time you experience them simply because they are unfamiliar. A few more times in the same situation and they become relatively pedestrian.

It's a strong argument for getting out there as crew a few times with someone who knows what they are doing before setting out yourself. It's an even stronger argument when you're planning to set out alone, as you'll have new challenges and things to learn about managing that. If you're already relatively comfortable with being offshore it will make that transition easier.

Stuff breaks offshore and unexpected events occur. Situations arise that require problem solving and a cool head. If you're coming to it cold, without prior direct experience in similar situations, you're setting yourself up for failure or at least a high-anxiety trip.