Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by sailpower

Did you pay $50 or $500 for your Catalina 22 Capri?

Slightly more. It's a 2004 that I bought in 2009. It was a distress sale. It had original sails, three brand new Ulman main, 110 jib, and 155 genoa, air force spinaker with carbon pole, 3.5 HP tohatsu outboard, wireless depth, speed, compass, trailer. 6K

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Slightly more. It's a 2004 that I bought in 2009. It was a distress sale. It had original sails, three brand new Ulman main, 110 jib, and 155 genoa, air force spinaker with carbon pole, 3.5 HP tohatsu outboard, wireless depth, speed, compass, trailer. 6K

I was interested if your negotiating advice worked in the real world.

Too bad.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by sailpower

I was interested if your negotiating advice worked in the real world.

Too bad.

mine did on the defender . I hadn't seen the owner for about 6 months and asked the marina to fwd my number . He offers to sell it to me for what he paid for the Suzuki 9 HP 4 stroke he put on it . I made a serious mistake doing it to I had no choice but to buy my dream boat for 2k ( its worth about 8k.) plus the volvo md2b I'm putting in it.

[JPA Cate]

Tidjian,

Go back to estarzinger's post where he tells you what to look at. Write that down somewhere, it is one starting point.

Here is a link to a CF thread started by a marine surveyor member: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...1-a-78671.html

You will find it helpful when you start looking at boats.

I don't know if your budget runs to it, but maybe you could take a trip to Florida or Texas and look at boats where there is no snow, with no intention to buy at this time.... That might give you a sense of making progress towards your goal, and time to practice what Evans wrote, and what you learn from "Marine Survey 101".

Ann

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by sailpower

I was interested if your negotiating advice worked in the real world.

Too bad.

I can't swear by it for boats but I've flipped a few houses that way. Early retirement is nice!!!!!!!!

[Drew13440]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

For an example of this, read about Skip Allan's experience in the gale zone offshore of San Francisco. I've sailed with Skip and he is one of the very best sailors I know. But he found himself in conditions where, as a solo sailor, he had to abandon his small boat. I know another bigger / heavier boat (Pacific Seacraft 34) that was doublehanded in that same place and time, and while they had a very rough passage they made it through.

Did the couple on the PSC34 see the exact same conditions as Skip? I don't know. I was there on my boat the previous week, but that was before the gale had fully developed. In any case, there are lessons to be learned.

Skip's story: Abandoning ship: gut-wrenching, perilous, sometimes right

Good God. This has been a very entertaining thread and thank you for posting this. I can't even imagine...

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

Skip's story: Abandoning ship: gut-wrenching, perilous, sometimes right

That's really strong support for leaving the life rafts at home. I guess they could be useful in favorable weather conditions but that's when the chances of needing it are the least. This might make for a good thread, entertaining at the least.

[Tidjian]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

^^ This. Regarding the boat by far the greatest factor in 'successful voyaging' is build quality + maintenance/condition.

Sailors love to talk the pros and cons of keels, rigs, displacement, etc . . . but in fact those factors don't amount to a hill of beans (for offshore cruising, obviously they do for racing) - they (if not pushed to stupid extremes) will all easily do the job.

What will effect your chances is if the boat is holding up well or falling down around you.

Unfortunately this factor (quality) is rather harder/more difficult to 'see' in a prospective boat than the keel or rig design.

There is no perfect offshore boat. It does not exist. If one waits for it, one will never ever leave. The perfect is very certainly the enemy of the good here, and there are lots and lots and lots of perfectly good boats that can (and have) do the job perfectly well with a little help from the skipper.

There is one factor that even out-shadows the boat 'quality', which is the skipper's resourcefulness and tenacity. Matt has been mentioned and he is (and has) capable of bring boats safely home which were in fact falling down and breaking up around him - he refused to quit or even temporarily stop. Stan Paris is the opposite - even with $m's in the best custom boats he can barely manage to get past Bermuda without some crisis which he can't resolve.

This skipper factor is, in my opinion, not at all strongly related to sailing or offshore experience/knowledge. I believe it is much more a deeper personality trait. Matt (and also Webb Chiles) had it even when he/they had very very little sailing experience, and Stan still does not have it even after racking up some decent offshore miles.

Like boat quality, this skipper factor is also unfortunately quite hard to assess (self-assess) . . . .do you get better/harder/stronger when the going gets really hard in life or do you melt/quit/run away? Can you make sensible calm thoughtful decisions in emergency conditions or do you panic to the extremes? Are you self-reliant, able to find solutions yourself, to learn stuff quickly on the job; or do you need a pro to fix repair stuff and to only learn when spoon fed?

Thank you for a more challenging and different approach to the subject.

After learning the things I have here plus the bit of experience I have I can most certainly appreciate what you're saying. I have always been a believer if you need a hammer any hammer will do the job pending it's not falling apart and you have an arm to swing it. No need to spend fruitlessly especially if it's going to be your first one. I apply that to my decision here. Although I'm a little less determined to set out in my Grampian 23 across the world. I don't feel I need the perfect boat to do the job. As many have pointed out, You as well, every boat had it's shortcomings and advantages. I'll continue to aim for something practical but know that even a boat circumnavigate before can fail; and a boat never circumnavigated before might have just never got it's chance to succeed.

As for my willingness and resolve. Like any person determined to do something incredibly difficult and unknown to me I am of course a little nervous. I think given all the hands on experience in the world I would be a little nervous to set out alone across an ocean. There have been nights I've thought about it and tried to talk myself out of the idea. The things I'll miss and the things that I could be giving up if it doesn't work out. But likewise there have been many more nights where I've thought about how much I want the experience and to truly live life even if it means breaching that unknown. I believe I have the courage and the discipline to achieve it as well as the brains to prepare myself as best I can. Talk is cheap and even writing this I can't really know what will happen or how I'll respond when out there alone. But I do know that the fear of not taking that chance troubles me far more.

I'll continue to study and first chance I can hit the water this upcoming season, new boat or no. I'll start applying a whole new approach to things. If I can I'll try to find the time to get time out there with more experienced sailors. I really hope to make the trip this fall but in the event I'm unable it won't stop me from going at it full swing the following year.

[Tidjian]

I'll definitely read some of the books suggested here and the sites. I've been taking notes and saving things as we go along. I'm still waiting for that new Cornell's atlas to come available as well. In the mean time I'm trying to refrain from asking silly questions about current, wind directions and sailing routes. At least until I can reference that book and learn a little myself.

In response to what you guys are saying about needing to know what to look for in an old boat. I have read a few things giving some pointers on where to look when inspecting. As Ez suggested keel bolts, mast condition, stress or cracks in the fibreglass or blistering, soft spots around the deck, stress cracks around chain plates and rigging connectors. Outside of that perspective I don't know much about hull strength or determining minor details that could be key to major flaws. I've heard of the tap method on the bulkhead from outside the boat and the sound difference between good and bad but have never done it.

Funny story because when I bought my boat I didn't know any of this. I recently emailed someone about a boat nearby that seemed s good candidate. He responded very chatty and somewhat overly enthusiastic. Maybe he had been waiting a while for a hit on his boat. Within the first couple emails he was quick to respond and would go into long details about the boat and her history with him and his experiences etc. He said fire away with anything you want to know. So I started with the condition of the keel bolts to the history of where she's sailed. Touched a lot on all those little details I didn't know about before. Suddenly the emails have gone dormant and I've yet to get any response. Maybe he's just busy or maybe despite looking immaculate in the photos there's some problems beneath the surface? I might never know.

In any event and I probably sound downright foolish but a few weeks ago had I decided on my own to view a new boat. I would've been taking his word for it pending I didn't see anything with the naked eye. So with a little luck as you say and hopefully a little help I think I might be getting on the right path.

[Tidjian]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Here is an islander 30 flush deck close to you.
1967 Islander 33 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
Same as the 32 but flush deck.

That islander 33 is gorgeous and looks quite comfortable. The list of what comes with it would probably put her in my price range. Here's the downside though. I'm not sure my truck can tow it and I would need a trailer built since she doesn't have one. MN to BC or even CA is a long haul and heavy shipping fees. Another issue is she has a 10' beam meaning she would need a permit to go through most states and across all the provinces I believe. No idea how much those are or where to even go for them. Guessing MTO.

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

That's really strong support for leaving the life rafts at home. I guess they could be useful in favorable weather conditions but that's when the chances of needing it are the least. This might make for a good thread, entertaining at the least.

Many people would agree with you about leaving the life raft at home, but if my boat sinks for any reason, in any kind of weather, or bursts into flames, I would rather be in a raft than treading water. Some folks reason that with a raft you are less motivated to find and fix the problem and that a raft gives you a false sense of security, etc, etc. They are no doubt correct for some people, in some cases. Me, on a long passage I carry a raft.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

Many people would agree with you about leaving the life raft at home, but if my boat sinks for any reason, in any kind of weather, or bursts into flames, I would rather be in a raft than treading water. Some folks reason that with a raft you are less motivated to find and fix the problem and that a raft gives you a false sense of security, etc, etc. They are no doubt correct for some people, in some cases. Me, on a long passage I carry a raft.

Do you only carry it on long passages? I like to have contingency plans but stop short of planning for minuscule risks especially if it's real expensive to do so. The advent of the EPIRB and PLB can eliminate a lot of risk at minimal cost if sailing in warm waters.

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by Tidjian

I think given all the hands on experience in the world I would be a little nervous to set out alone across an ocean.

Many of us feel nervous before setting out on a long passage. I know I do. It's a big deal, it can be dangerous, and the first time you do it the experience will change you forever. You will go through many emotional changes along the way. As you near your destination you may very well be tempted to just keep sailing. Most of us do remember that we have loved ones waiting for us, and so eventually drop anchor and come ashore. But it can be a glorious experience.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Tidjian

That islander 33 is gorgeous and looks quite comfortable. The list of what comes with it would probably put her in my price range. Here's the downside though. I'm not sure my truck can tow it and I would need a trailer built since she doesn't have one. MN to BC or even CA is a long haul and heavy shipping fees. Another issue is she has a 10' beam meaning she would need a permit to go through most states and across all the provinces I believe. No idea how much those are or where to even go for them. Guessing MTO.

sail her all the way voyage of a lifetime.
Also would likely only cost about 3k to ship her ( pm me for specifics I used to own a trucking company)

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Do you only carry it on long passages? I like to have contingency plans but stop short of planning for minuscule risks especially if it's real expensive to do so. The advent of the EPIRB and PLB can eliminate a lot of risk at minimal cost if sailing in warm waters.

These days I sail in cold waters, and generally keep the raft onboard. I need the raft for the ocean races I do (none in the past few years), and I keep it maintained and inspected. I've probably spent more on the inspections than on the initial purchase, or nearly so.

If we went into the water here in the PNW, even with our EPIRB and PLBs I'm pretty sure we would succumb to hypothermia long before help could arrive. Sailing in Hawaii, that's not so much of a problem.