Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I'm thinking the 15 years experience racing beach cats against strong competition would totally help sailing any boat.

A guy with an Alberg 30 wanted to race me on my Bristol 27 to get some practice at single handed racing.

We raced a 12 mile course maybe 8 times and he has yet to win.....which is fine because he's not a racer.

You see the point.

Now as far as boats and pointing, see below.

Your boat will not point but an Olson 30 will

PHRF Ratings:

Bristol 27: 240

Alberg 30: 228

Islander 24: 270

Merit 25: 171

Olson 30: 108

come on over we will go sailing in heavy winds and I will show you what she can do not what the book says she can .
As an aside the islander bahama has a puff of 163 or 164 depending on what club you race in.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Many have said that a fin keel boat will point higher than a full or cutaway forefoot will. I would love to know exactly what you are using as basis for your statements and exactly how much closer to the wind you can point. I can point my islander 24 to within about 25° to off the wind .

Speaks volumes.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by RedHerring

They came pretty late this year, so it's still hitting 30C (85F) in the afternoon. Whether we sail left or right from here is still up for debate, either way it'll be next season (all going well etc), not this one.

Sailing from Vancouver to Baja Mexico was our first adventure on a sailboat, that was 35 years ago and we had a blast. When the fun was over we sailed back to Vancouver via Hawaii...The hook was set! We craved to get out for longer and further..which of course we did. You have a nice boat and you'll have nothing but fun, I'm assuming you just arrived not too long ago. Like your first anything, the Baja has a special place in my mind.

[kmacdonald]

One design racing is how you become a good sailor.

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by newhaul

come on over we will go sailing in heavy winds and I will show you what she can do not what the book says she can .
As an aside the islander bahama has a puff of 163 or 164 depending on what club you race in.

PHRF for an Islander Bahama 24 ranges from a low of 246 to a high of 273 across the US.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by mitiempo

PHRF for an Islander Bahama 24 ranges from a low of 246 to a high of 273 across the US.

Paul you are correct I ment to hit the 2 but my big thumbs made me look the fool again

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by newhaul

come on over we will go sailing in heavy winds and I will show you what she can do not what the book says she can .
As an aside the islander bahama has a puff of 163 or 164 depending on what club you race in.

I don't have to come over because the data is already there for you in the PHRF Ratings from all around the country

The first leg of most any buoy race is the upwind leg......so pointing is very important

You are showing your lack of knowledge as far as sailboat performance

Every sailor is a great pointing/racing sailor when there is no competition

When you have raced 500 races as I have then maybe we can have an argument until then you should probably stick with what you know about sailing, boats, electronics, anchoring etc

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

One design racing is how you become a good sailor.

Exactly and that's where I started a month after I bought my first Hobie 16 in 1992

Then after I became the number one sailor in my area in Tennessee/Mississippi, I moved to Pensacola, FL and was last and had to start over.....

With a newer more high tech boat (Nacra 6.0) with spreaders on the mast because they weren't sailing H16's there anymore

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by newhaul

come on over we will go sailing in heavy winds and I will show you what she can do not what the book says she can .
As an aside the islander bahama has a puff of 163 or 164 depending on what club you race in.

RE this statement and all your previous ones on the subject:

Can you tell us how you are determining the AWA figures that you quote, please? Honestly, they are so far away from what I and other experienced sailors have seen in practice that they are simply unbelievable. I don't think that you are lying, but i suspect that your data or your interpretation of the data are flawed.

Over the past few years we've had a few sailors here on CF who made similar claims of extraordinary pointing ability, and they have all (IIRC) been traced to lack of accurate data, or in some cases, any data at all... as in the angles were estimated, not measured.

IMO, for the average cruiser, the best way to determine real pointing ability is from measuring the recorded angles between track on a plotter, over a reasonable distance and in waters without significant current. That latter restriction is often not easily obtained, and perhaps invalidates the method in some venues. However, other methods, say reading a masthead AWA gage, are so full of potential errors as to be very doubtful... things like induced error from rolling or pitching, differing time constants in the metering circuits, reading errors in analog displays and so on render the results unreliable at best.

So, I hope that you can see why we have doubts when you claim performance as good as or better than the best race boats, and are sailing a pretty ordinary cruiser... it just doesn't add up.

Jim

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

RE this statement and all your previous ones on the subject:

Can you tell us how you are determining the AWA figures that you quote, please? Honestly, they are so far away from what I and other experienced sailors have seen in practice that they are simply unbelievable. I don't think that you are lying, but i suspect that your data or your interpretation of the data are flawed.

Over the past few years we've had a few sailors here on CF who made similar claims of extraordinary pointing ability, and they have all (IIRC) been traced to lack of accurate data, or in some cases, any data at all... as in the angles were estimated, not measured.

IMO, for the average cruiser, the best way to determine real pointing ability is from measuring the recorded angles between track on a plotter, over a reasonable distance and in waters without significant current. That latter restriction is often not easily obtained, and perhaps invalidates the method in some venues. However, other methods, say reading a masthead AWA gage, are so full of potential errors as to be very doubtful... things like induced error from rolling or pitching, differing time constants in the metering circuits, reading errors in analog displays and so on render the results unreliable at best.

So, I hope that you can see why we have doubts when you claim performance as good as or better than the best race boats, and are sailing a pretty ordinary cruiser... it just doesn't add up.

Jim

him I already explained my thumb hit the 1 instead of the 2 for phrf numbers.
As far as point of sail that was determined by eye between my Windex and my gps showing my heading. I was only moving fwd at about 1knot but was in the direction I needed to go . ( to get out of the storms ) from point no point . To appletree cove in puget sound. Traveling with the incoming tide

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...g4VuKho0NUj8Hg
Booklet chart for reference pages 9 , 10 and 14

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by newhaul

racing cats are a lot different to sail than a lead sled like the ib24.

Very true but with the speed you do learn a few things about apparent wind and pointing etc even though you have no guide except the other boats.

Here's the new rev Nacra 17 they are now using in the Olympics which have been changed to two up instead of singlehanded as it was when I sailed them.

I was able to run the 3 sails a few times back in the day though singlehanded and take the mod penalty.

It worked on one occasion (above post) and on the other three, I pitchpoled because I didn't have roller furling etc and the wind came up to something near 20 knots which is very easy for my Bristol 27 to deal with but not a 300lb beach cat with the same sail area

NACRA 17 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

BRISTOL 27 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1rZUMkisjA

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Very true but with the speed you do learn a few things about apparent wind and pointing etc even though you have no guide except the other boats.

Here's the new rev Nacra 17 they are now using in the Olympics which have been changed to two up instead of singlehanded as it was when I sailed them.

I was able to run the 3 sails a few times back in the day though singlehanded and take the mod penalty.

It worked on one occasion and on the other three, I pitchpoled because I didn't have roller furling etc and the wind came up to something near 20 knots which is very easy for my Bristol 27 to deal with but not a 300lb beach cat with the same sail area

NACRA 17 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

BRISTOL 27 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

if I was 20 years younger that would be fun.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by newhaul

him I already explained my thumb hit the 1 instead of the 2 for phrf numbers.
As far as point of sail that was determined by eye between my Windex and my gps showing my heading. I was only moving fwd at about 1knot but was in the direction I needed to go . ( to get out of the storms ) from point no point . To appletree cove in puget sound. Traveling with the incoming tide

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...g4VuKho0NUj8Hg
Booklet chart for reference pages 9 , 10 and 14

You should consult the polars for your boat (if they exist) to determine your best upwind wind angle in terms of VMG.

Jim called your 24 degree number unbelievable. I call it impossible. It's just not feasible in that boat with the sails filled. At one knot of boat speed you have virtually no apparent wind which you would need in spades to get that boat any higher than 30 degrees apparent.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by newhaul

if I was 20 years younger that would be fun.

Yeah, I wish we had the foiling boats back in the day and my son would still crew for me. He was great at calling the tacks.............

But he wanted to date girls for some reason instead of race sailboats!?

I miss the 90's and early 2000's racing beach cats then hanging at the beach bars on Pensacola Beach til.......

My son/crew

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Yeah, I wish we had the foiling boats back in the day and my son would still crew for me

But he wanted to date girls instead of race!?

I miss the 90's and early 2000's

My son/crew

agreed