German Made Sailboats with Raised Deck Saloon Designed for Long Distance Cruising

[Auklet]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Did you read about the case of Cheeky Rafiki, which sank in the Atlantic when the keel fell off? See: https://wavetrain.net/2014/05/26/che...n-post-mortem/ Several people were killed.

Would you conclude from that that you would not be interested in a "bluewater yacht" with a keel?

Yes I did read the report a few years back with great interest. Notable were the facts that the yacht, a Beneteau, had traveled beyond its authorized (certified) sailing ambit (i.e., across the pond to the Caribbean), that it had sustained damage to the keel/ hull connection from a years-old grounding that had not been fully repaired, that the charter company that owned the yacht did not authorize a scheduled, or wished for, inspection before the yacht made way for (return to) the UK, that the skipper was told to press on toward the Azores in developing bad weather despite signs of trouble on the yacht, that half of the crew were passengers (joy riders), and that the skipper was a teenager.

So, I don't think your question offers a genuine comparison. The Harden 45 was a true, full keel, bluewater yacht under command of a seasoned skipper who was the owner, although also with passengers aboard. The yacht was not suffering from preexisting damage. The failing of the windows was evidently one of a design shortcoming, although (from memory) I do believe they did not or could not get the storm boards in place. Had they, then the windows would not have stove in. BUT-- really? A crew of passengers is going to install and maintain storm boards with the skipper and 1st mate over the side in a storm? In that situation you might conclude that the yacht could not take of herself in those conditions, etc., although she thankfully did not go down. It's worth a read. I might be fuzzy on some detail. It's been a few years since my read.

[donradcliffe]

One wave is not a test of a blue water boat. Would you feel comfortable taking your boat around the Horn.

[Auklet]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

One wave is not a test of a blue water boat. Would you feel comfortable taking your boat around the Horn.

I doubt I'd feel comfortable taking myself around the Horn.

[Junk Viking]

Sound sleep is an often ignored safety issue.
And the center of the boat is naturally the best place to sleep.

The DS design with raised settee offers room for a true double center cabin.
Sirius actually offers an “owners cabin” in the center of the boat, so it’s not just a safety measure, but a daily source of comfort.
Starting with the the 31DS - that’s just insane!

I outright stole the feature and implemented it on my own boat.
Thanks Torsten & team

[Auklet]

Originally Posted by blu3534

Completely agree.

Some posts are so incredibly ignorant. A very sad sinking, a big window, a new law in NZ and all windows are bad. Don't think twice, damn windows. I'm sorry, that can't be it, can it?

Here what Sirius said: https://www.sirius-yachts.com/how-st...-hull-windows/. It was mentioned before: these windows are stronger than the hull.

Well, frankly sir, I see it as incredibly ignorant “to completely agree” with an absurd question such as the one Dockhead posed as if to infer something relevant. Refer to my post (reply) above, #61, to see if you still “completely agree.” Perhaps check-up on my facts regarding the Cheeki Rafiki.

[goboatingnow]

In my view a simple traditional design with two long straight settees an L shaped galley and proper chart table along with small windows is the best bet.

Note that I was in a Jeanneaux 45Ds that took a direct hit from a breaking wave. The deck windows didn’t give in , in it either.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Auklet

. . . So, I don't think your question offers a genuine comparison. The Harden 45 was a true, full keel, bluewater yacht under command of a seasoned skipper who was the owner, although also with passengers aboard. The yacht was not suffering from preexisting damage. The failing of the windows was evidently one of a design shortcoming, although (from memory) I do believe they did not or could not get the storm boards in place. Had they, then the windows would not have stove in. BUT-- really? A crew of passengers is going to install and maintain storm boards with the skipper and 1st mate over the side in a storm? In that situation you might conclude that the yacht could not take of herself in those conditions, etc., although she thankfully did not go down. It's worth a read. I might be fuzzy on some detail. It's been a few years since my read.

If that yacht was designed to be used in heavy weather only with storm boards in place, then there's the answer to your question -- operator error. It's a possibly reasonable approach to design the windows so that they need storm boards to survive wave strikes (it's expensive to make them strong enough without the boards). But if you own such a yacht, you need to put the boards in place BEFORE you get into survival weather. Otherwise it's your own fault if they get stove in.



Modern DS yachts are designed so that the windows are strong enough without storm boards. Here is the Oyster 66:





So that's not "suitable for blue water"? Really? Oysters are among the ultimate blue water yachts, built strong as hell and suitable for all weather. The Oyster DS windows are built to be as strong as the hull. In millions of miles of all kinds of sailing, not one of those trademark Oyster DS windows has ever been stove in. And they are delivered without storm boards; they are designed to be used in any weather without them.



These are engineering questions; it doesn't do to let your thinking be guided by prejudice or emotion.

[Auklet]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

If that yacht was designed to be used in heavy weather only with storm boards in place, then there's the answer to your question -- operator error. It's a possibly reasonable approach to design the windows so that they need storm boards to survive wave strikes (it's expensive to make them strong enough without the boards). But if you own such a yacht, you need to put the boards in place BEFORE you get into survival weather. Otherwise it's your own fault if they get stove in.



Modern DS yachts are designed so that the windows are strong enough without storm boards. Here is the Oyster 66:


Attachment 247410


So that's not "suitable for blue water"? Really? Oysters are among the ultimate blue water yachts, built strong as hell and suitable for all weather. The Oyster DS windows are built to be as strong as the hull. In millions of miles of all kinds of sailing, not one of those trademark Oyster DS windows has ever been stove in. And they are delivered without storm boards; they are designed to be used in any weather without them.



These are engineering questions; it doesn't do to let your thinking be guided by prejudice or emotion.

Well, thank you for the update on modern designs. Perhaps I will reconsider my prejudice in that regard regarding windows. But I imagine I might better afford the design of a Pacific Seacraft with small portlights b/f a modern Oyster or DS design, etc. (And convince the wife.)

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by blu3534

Completely agree.

Some posts are so incredibly ignorant. A very sad sinking, a big window, a new law in NZ and all windows are bad. Don't think twice, damn windows. I'm sorry, that can't be it, can it?

Here what Sirius said: https://www.sirius-yachts.com/how-st...-hull-windows/. It was mentioned before: these windows are stronger than the hull.

What Sirius did was to weaken the hull around their windows by a factor of 4 with square corners so that it was not as strong as the windows. The marketing department is in charge!

Calculate it yourself:

https://amesweb.info/stress-concentr...-in-plate.aspx

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Auklet

Well, thank you for the update on modern designs. Perhaps I will reconsider my prejudice in that regard regarding windows. But I imagine I might better afford the design of a Pacific Seacraft with small portlights b/f a modern Oyster design, etc.

Yes, it is relatively costly to build big windows really strong.


GoBoatingNow has stated that he was in an inexpensive Jeanneau DS which suffered a direct wave strike without damage to the windows. Maybe the mass production builders have also figured out how to make them strong enough -- I don't know. Do we hear of DS windows being stove in?


For that matter, what about catamarans? They have big windows too. Do they get stove in? I don't know for sure, but I haven't heard of any cases. Although with mass produced boats pushing the envelope in terms of what they can get away with structurally, I wouldn't be entirely surprised.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Yes, it is relatively costly to build big windows really strong.


GoBoatingNow has stated that he was in an inexpensive Jeanneau DS which suffered a direct wave strike without damage to the windows. Maybe the mass production builders have also figured out how to make them strong enough -- I don't know. Do we hear of DS windows being stove in?


For that matter, what about catamarans? They have big windows too. Do they get stove in? I don't know for sure, but I haven't heard of any cases. Although with mass produced boats pushing the envelope in terms of what they can get away with structurally, I wouldn't be entirely surprised.

The fact is that in conditions that are approaching breaking the average large window on ANY yacht you are throwing dice. Hatches can get ripped off , etc etc etc. Every yacht has a particular combination of events that will send her to the bottom

In the Jeanneaux DS the breaking wave drove the whole boat bodily 15 feet under. I know cause I was double harnessed to the helm area. Thank goodness the wash boards were fully installed.

In my experience most crews bail long before the yacht actually fails or the crew stops caring for the yacht and then stuff happens.

The key thing is the yacht can’t save you from yourself.

Too many people think they can specify a yacht that will look after them irrespective. That boat doesn’t exist.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The fact is that in conditions that are approaching breaking the average large window on ANY yacht you are throwing dice. Hatches can get ripped off , etc etc etc. Every yacht has a particular combination of events that will send her to the bottom . . .

That's certainly true, but you don't want weak spots in the whole system which could cause the system to fail short of the general level of strength designed. The hatches should be strong and should be firmly battened down, washboards well attached, non-essential sea cocks closed, you want the ports and windows to be as strong as the hull.



I reckon if your Jenneau's large windows withstood a wave strike which forced the boat down 15 feet (!), then they are plenty strong enough.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That's certainly true, but you don't want weak spots in the whole system which could cause the system to fail short of the general level of strength designed. The hatches should be strong and should be firmly battened down, washboards well attached, non-essential sea cocks closed, you want the ports and windows to be as strong as the hull.



I reckon if your Jenneau's large windows withstood a wave strike which forced the boat down 15 feet (!), then they are plenty strong enough.

That model of the 45 DS was impressive in big seas I’ll give it that. Plenty of rudder authority a reasonable canoe body etc. Not quite so enamoured by the later variants, I do think in particular Group Beneteau has gotten away from strong traditional ideas and is pandering to the charter market

My view is most boats over 40 feet are well capable of blue water sailing provided the crew knows what’s it’s doing and the boat is prepared for the sailing area.

I understand why people like to buy high end “ brands “. The world needs these people. But I remain sceptical that dollar for dollar you are getting a proportionately better boat and I’ve been in most of the these factories over the years.

[Auklet]

When folks ask about passage making in a yacht of similar design, engineering, and quality as my Bavaria 38, I cringe a little. The acrylic portlights are nice, but dogged with plastic handles that simply rotate down to lock it closed. They are Gebo portlights and hatches. One cannot dog these down with a treaded knob as in traditional designs. I question if they could withstand significant pounding against side seas. I just doubt it. If not stove in entirely they are bound to open enough to allow water in, it seems. One is right over the nav station. So far, we have not taken such hits but the day is coming, I suspect. I’ve read that some owners have fashioned storm boards to cover ‘em.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Auklet

When folks ask about passage making in a yacht of similar design, engineering, and quality as my Bavaria 38, I cringe a little. The acrylic portlights are nice, but dogged with plastic handles that simply rotate down to lock the portlight closed. They are Gebo portlights and hatches. One cannot dog these down with a treaded knob as in traditional designs. I question if they could withstand significant pounding against side seas. I just doubt it. If not stove in entirely they are bound to open enough to allow water in, it seems. One is right over the nav station. So far, we have not taken such hits but the day is coming, I suspect.

As a bav 36 owner , the lewmar low profile hatches have an excellent reputation and are used on many many high end yachts. The chances are very slim given the low profile of any breaking wave doing these serious damage.

As for the port lights. Wave pressure will cause these to leak like a sieve. But the failure mode is quite low. They are small , the acrylic is strong and you have three closing devices as opposed to the usual two. Also it’s easy to fit protective covers to these ports if you are concerned. The bavs of this era have very small opening in general.

Hence in a bav these are not the areas I’d be worried about per se.

By the way a friend of mine has a very nice stainless system that replaces the plastic handles ( whilst they remain in situ ) the stainless system can be tightened up as required. This is for the side port lights. He uses it in the winter layup but equally it would be great offshore.