"Goldilocks" 45 footer

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

It rather seems as though the "Goldilocks" boat should have:
The speed, response, and agility of a sports car, and the cargo carrying ability of a truck, and the strength of an Abrams tank.
I'm kind of in three spaces:
"Plastic Classic"= Alajuela 38.
"Older School" = S&S Swan.
"Ancient School" = Alden schooner.
They all tug at my heart strings.
A lot of "modern" boats are nice/ok, but why do so many of them look like they were designed inside and out by an inferior desecrator, (interior designer,) or a toy designer.
Heaven forbid that a hose or wire might offend someone with its visual presence.

The boat you describe doesn’t exist, and it’s foolish to search for it. Too many of these attributes are merely subjective , ( how strong should “ strength “ be for example )

To appreciate the compromises you need to sail them.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The boat you describe doesn’t exist, and it’s foolish to search for it. Too many of these attributes are merely subjective , ( how strong should “ strength “ be for example )

To appreciate the compromises you need to sail them.

Perhaps it doesn't exist, and that's ok, I'm not in the market, (or looking,) for any boats, what I have now does everything I need.
As a matter of fact, I've sailed on all three of the types I described/mentioned and even though they had little in common with each other all were quite capable of doing the most important thing imaginable: Getting you from point A to point B in safety without beating your brains out or scaring you half to death.
Of course, the Alden schooner would carry everything including the kitchen sink.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

Perhaps it doesn't exist, and that's ok, I'm not in the market, (or looking,) for any boats, what I have now does everything I need.
As a matter of fact, I've sailed on all three of the types I described/mentioned and even though they had little in common with each other all were quite capable of doing the most important thing imaginable: Getting you from point A to point B in safety without beating your brains out or scaring you half to death.
Of course, the Alden schooner would carry everything including the kitchen sink.

Most modern boats sailed properly , will take you from A to B, quite quickly as well, and will not beat your brains out or scare you. Bad sailing is scary , boats rarely are.

[AiniA]

To me finding the Goldilocks boat has to include the cost of the vessel. What is the purpose of lusting after a boat if it costs four times your budget. The amount of bang for the buck seems critical.

Someone mentioned a Bristol 45.5. We circumnavigated in one (centre cockpit sloop in removable inner stay) and it did admirably, but they have held their value very well. if you want a similar boat and to spend an extra $50k+ you can go to a Little Harbor. I think Hood was a design genius and willing to go outside the conventional box with his designs. The downside is that these boats were very expensive to build and so were not copied.

[billnz]

After many 1000s of miles sailing delivering , racing & just living on all types from Cats , Trys , Cutters , Steel , Ferro , Glass , Ketches ,Wing masted ,wooden , carbon , heavy , Light , Medium displacement , Long keel , drop keel , Dagger board , Lee board , 110 year old , Brand new , One off , to mass produced , You no i loved the lot , Some were a bit wet , Some a bit slow ,, Some hard to tack , Some bloody quick (32Knots on a 55 try) But im out there doing it & as a sailor thats what its all about - Doing it , Enjoying life for this little time we have on this earth IS NOT A REHEASAL = ENJOY . Now for the Question a 45 foot Benetuae of around the 2008 mark in good nick that some one has put a few extras on - Water maker , Solor , Electric winch's (Im 74?) GOOD GROUND TACKLE, newish sails & NO groundings = ENJOY .

[Jim Cate]

...newish sails & NO groundings = ENJOY .

A vessel which can only be enjoyed if it has no groundings is far from Goldilocks IMO. Sufficient structural strength to shrug off simple groundings is absolutely essential in any boat of mine.

Jim

[Simister108]

Originally Posted by ricwoz

The previous thread was comparing the two styles of boats. Dick B. does a good job of presenting the case for the old-school yacht, (or at least many characteristics of them) but of course, that's what he's selling.

That previous thread was asking people here, with different opinions on this topic to weigh in and share them. And they did: 5 pages (and 8,000 views).

Hearing the Old School claims (which I am very familiar with being an old fellow myself, and having heard all the lore of Valiants, Pacific Seacrafts, Taiwan Cutters, Hans Christians and such for decades now (and done some sailing on a few of them, too) was less enlightening to me than the counter-claims of the New School advocates.

After all, there are tons and tons of people doing water sailing">blue water sailing on Beneataus, Jeanneaus and other more modern designs. I don't think they are all just unaware of the "Lead Sled" advocates and their claims.

And now, even some of the old-school blue-water builders, like Hallberg-Rassy are now building with dual rudders and other new-school features. (Maybe they are just following buyer demand, or maybe, as they claim they really do think it's better, and just as safe in practice, contra Dick B.)

So, I was interested in hearing the other side, and I did, and if you haven't checked out that thread you might find it interesting too. Especially if you are falling under the sway of the Kracken-master.

But this thread I was looking for something slightly different:

The opinion of a lot of people was that *neither* the old-style boats like the Pacific Seacraft *nor* the agressively modern French charter boats are ideal, something in between is the best. A compromise.

I think the Kraken 50 probably fits in the in-between, so it answers by slotting right into my Goldilocks focus. THANKS! (I'd say it's pretty close to the Pacific Seacraft end of the spectrum.)

I also posted a thread on center-cockpits: pros and cons. Obviously if you like center cockpits the Kracken is a possibility. If you prefer the aft cockpit, you are SOL with the Kracken.

Anyway, thanks again, very much, and here's another picture of the Kracken 50 at sail:

new to the sailboat scene/forums but I'm looking for a second opinion on some dream shopping if you wouldn't mind. I came across the Kraken and it seemed to tick a lot of boxes but not for the reasons everyone else seems to talk about.


some other boats like the Sirius and the Exploration 45 seem to have a well layed out design for the technical stuff for inside the boat for repairs.


Electrical and plumbing are all labeled and accessible from almost every panel and i even saw on the kraken they have exposed bolts to take the engine out through the cockpit floor.



Honestly all the stuff about the skeg hung rudder or the keel just seem like "faberware" or marketing from what i have been able to research. like im more impressed they include inverters for shore hookups and multiple fuel filters and water maker as standard.


I think im expecting something will eventually go wrong/break, id rather be able to fix it behind one panel than have to tear a room apart to access one end of the thing i need to get to then to only have to take apart another room to get the other end.


if theres any other boats that are cheaper that could accomplish this id love to know

[JPA Cate]

@kiwin:

Take a look at some of Jon Sayer's 45-50 ft. designs. The one's we looked at were all strip plank western red cedar, and we bought one!

We also looked at Van de Stadt Samoas, both aluminium and strip planked.

If you're wanting a boat that will routinely give you 200-250 n. mi. per day, plus comfort aboard, you are looking for a boat that will perform well in light airs, fin keel, rounded sections fwd (so as to not pound), flat aft (to surf), skeg hung rudder. And if you're like us, no saildrives need apply.

Or, maybe you want to look at catamarans. Their motion doesn't suit my body, but lots of people love them.



Ann

PS, on Edit:

You might also like the Adams 15's, or even the Carinas, at 44 ft. What I'd suggest is making a list of the features you want and do not want, and look at a lot of boats. You will have to kiss a lot of frogs, or boats you think might be frogs at the time, and then your opinion changes, that maybe you could live with "x". Even if you work with a broker to find what you want, be prepared for "get outta here, it doesnt exist, don't waste my time" to "thank you so much, this is really clear" reactions. Mostly brokers want to sell you what they have, not what you want, be prepared!

[Wolfe10]

OK, an unusual "counterpoint" to "my boat is the perfect one": We have done 10's of thousands of miles in a Pacific Seacraft Crealock 37". Yup, in many kinds of sea conditions. BUT (some will read that as a LARGE BUT) no-cross ocean passages. Most of our miles were on our many trips from Galveston Bay, Texas to the Bahamas. Yes, in the early 1990's we DID get caught in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico in "less than ideal" conditions. Weather predictions have come a long ways since then.

So, fast forward many years. We have Japanese sailing friends (20 years plus) who have circumnavigate TWICE in a Fuji 32'.

I know he (won't mention name) was very frustrated when the two of us sailed from point A to B over a couple of months in the Bahamas.

Fast forward 3 years. They sold their Fuji 32' and bought a Crealock 37'.

Fast forward 10,000+ miles in their Crealock. Oh, they absolutely loved the speed, motion, etc. of the Crealock, but on LONG offshore passages where they (husband and wife) would experience many really adverse weather conditions, they preferred the much slower/less maneuverable, long full keel Fuji 32' because with only two on-board, tracking/sea-kindly-ness was more important than arrive two days earlier.


The Fuji 32' was the right boat for THEM. WAY too slow for us.


BOTTOM LINE, THERE IS NO, REPEAT NO IDEAL BOAT.

[JPA Cate]

Well, of course there are many factors which go into what you like. For instance, I have sailed only once or twice on the heavy displacement, long fin keel type of boats, so I am used to more responsive boats that are fun to sail.

We've seen a lot of those heavyweights motoring downwind, too. And, our bias is towards the more responsive end of the spectrum, the more "fun" to sail. Our pride was associated with not motoring, but sailing everywhere, and oddly, there was a time when it earned us respect and set us apart from other American visitors.

For me, "fun to sail" is not a major factor on passages--the boat is on autopilot or windvane most of the time. But when you've been becalmed, and willing to accept what the weather gods offer you, and then there is just enough breeze to feel on a moistened finger, then you can set the sails (taken down to prevent useless wear & tear), and play the "can I get her moving?" game. The direction doesn't matter, till you can get the boat speed up to about a knot. Then, as the wind builds, you help her get up to 4 or so, then fine tune the direction. Pretty soon, you are ghosting along at a reasonable rate. People who turn on their engines may arrive earlier in the anchorage....but they had to motor. Now, the long keel, heavy displacement boats, boat vary a lot, too. Herreshoff was fond of saying "water doesn't like surprises". You look at some of those timber boats, especially the ones which are narrower and longer, and some of them, even gaffers, work darned well with a LOT of sail spread.

To some extent it seems to me that one should only buy a boat that both ticks the boxes of what you think is important to you, and makes your heart go pitty pat. You make the best choice with your mind, but also your heart.

Wolfe 10 is right, there is no ideal boat. All boats are some kind of design compromise. But, there may be a boat out there which is ideal for you at some time in your life. It may take a lot of seeking if you're particular. (Took us almost 4 years to find and obtain this boat. Learned a bit about how brokers can mess you over, too.)

Ann

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Simister108

new to the sailboat scene/forums but I'm looking for a second opinion on some dream shopping if you wouldn't mind. I came across the Kraken and it seemed to tick a lot of boxes but not for the reasons everyone else seems to talk about.


some other boats like the Sirius and the Exploration 45 seem to have a well layed out design for the technical stuff for inside the boat for repairs.


Electrical and plumbing are all labeled and accessible from almost every panel and i even saw on the kraken they have exposed bolts to take the engine out through the cockpit floor.



Honestly all the stuff about the skeg hung rudder or the keel just seem like "faberware" or marketing from what i have been able to research. like im more impressed they include inverters for shore hookups and multiple fuel filters and water maker as standard.


I think im expecting something will eventually go wrong/break, id rather be able to fix it behind one panel than have to tear a room apart to access one end of the thing i need to get to then to only have to take apart another room to get the other end.


if theres any other boats that are cheaper that could accomplish this id love to know

Welcome aboard Simister108. I don't know about the boats you mentioned but I agree with your preference for a boat that is easy to work on with easy access to everything.
I am sure there are many boats I could fall in love with but the Peterson 44 seemed pretty goldilocks to me when I sailed one many years ago.