Halyard tension at anchor

[patagoniadave]

Originally Posted by Snore

Lets start with jib halyard tension- This is not Snore- but from two different sailmakers; one made my jib and another made my main (long story).

Imagine a bedsheet pulled tight and left tight for months on end. Over time the fabric will stretch. So yes, when you are not sailing ease the halyards. They should not be slapping lose, but they should not be loaded. When you unroll the jib, go forward and tighten it again. You could try to tighten it before unrolling, but will likely need to go forward again.

Main halyard tension-solely my opinion-- if you have a conventional rig or in-boom, remove it from the head of the sail, fasten it somewhere (a short line under the boom?) and tighten it up. If the boat has in-mast furling, I would NOT slack the main halyard. It could result in mushrooming the bottom of the wrapped main.

Not sure about the creak. Could be bulkhead, could be compression post (if you have one) or could be rigging.

I have a main halyard that detaches from the sail. I connect that end to the rail, so it is only tensioning itself. I will experiment with letting just enough tension off of the jib so that it does not slap.

Hopefully the noise is nothing, it is very specific to a set of conditions, but also very very loud. I am tired today.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by patagoniadave

Sorry, I should have used "head" still coming up to speed on vocabulary.

I can't remember how the seller told me the mast worked on this boat, but I think he said there was portion that went down to the keel, and cantilevered up to where the main mast connects above the cabin. I can't remember the name of that cantilevered part, but,it's in the middle of the wall between the head and the..... whatever the proper name for the living room is. The loud squeaking creak is coming from that wall, and I am only concerned because it was not there before the sail.

I know sound travels, but if put my ear to the wall, it sounds loudest about a foot above the floor.

So your boat has a "compression post" I believe which is a post of wood or metal that supports the deck where the mast sits, down to some kind of block under the floor (cabin sole) that rests on the top of the inside of the hull where the keel meets the hull. See if you can see in there and see if there is any rot or rust or any problems. If the mast is able to compress that under pressure that makes your whole standing rigging, shrouds on the sides and stays on the bow and stern, become looser. I am not familiar with how Irwins were constructed but from what I have just read, I would guess there are many ways the hull and bulkheads could be looser than most and allowing movement that creates the creaking. I would check the chainplates which are the metal tabs bolted to the bulkheads that the shrouds attach to. See if they show any corrosion, but also see if it looks like there has been leaking that has allowed the wood to rot. (Take some pictures if you can.) If so that needs to be repaired. There is a tremendous amount of force transferred from the mast and rigging to the hull when the boat heels and is pitching in choppy seas. The mast has a lot of compression force downward on it and the bulkheads must support that strain laterally as well. Be sure your balsa cored deck has not suffered from leaks as well, the deck actually does contribute to the strength of the whole structure as well. The bulkheads, chainplates and compression post and mast base must all be solid. The bulkhead walls are a very important part of the structural integrity of the boat, even more than a load bearing wall in a house. In an older boat, chances are good that some of that has become less than solid over time, especially if there have been leaks. From what I have read, it can be hard to see how the bulkheads are bonded to the hull in your boat but I'd bend my head around inside the head or hanging locker to see how it looks and to see if there is any separation. I hope some Irwin owners will chime in here. You might just google Citation 34 for owners groups and more info on construction.
https://www.practical-sailor.com/sai...in-citation-34
Or you could start a thread with Irwin Citation 34 in the title to catch the eye of owners who can give you tips about dealing with the creaks.

[patagoniadave]

Originally Posted by Don C L

So your boat has a "compression post" I believe which is a post of wood or metal that supports the deck where the mast sits, down to some kind of block under the floor (cabin sole) that rests on the top of the inside of the hull where the keel meets the hull. See if you can see in there and see if there is any rot or rust or any problems. If the mast is able to compress that under pressure that makes your whole standing rigging, shrouds on the sides and stays on the bow and stern, become looser. I am not familiar with how Irwins were constructed but from what I have just read, I would guess there are many ways the hull and bulkheads could be looser than most and allowing movement that creates the creaking. I would check the chainplates which are the metal tabs bolted to the bulkheads that the shrouds attach to. See if they show any corrosion, but also see if it looks like there has been leaking that has allowed the wood to rot. (Take some pictures if you can.) If so that needs to be repaired. There is a tremendous amount of force transferred from the mast and rigging to the hull when the boat heels and is pitching in choppy seas. The mast has a lot of compression force downward on it and the bulkheads must support that strain laterally as well. Be sure your balsa cored deck has not suffered from leaks as well, the deck actually does contribute to the strength of the whole structure as well. The bulkheads, chainplates and compression post and mast base must all be solid. In an older boat, chances are good that some of that has become less than solid over time, especially if there have been leaks. From what I have read, it can be hard to see how the bulkheads are bonded to the hull in your boat but I'd bend my head around inside the head or hanging locker to see how it looks and to see if there is any separation. I hope some Irwin owners will chime in here. You might just google Citation 34 for owners groups and more info on construction.
https://www.practical-sailor.com/sai...in-citation-34
Or you could start a thread with Irwin Citation 34 in the title to catch the eye of owners who can give you tips about dealing with the creaks.

Cool, thanks for the tips. I have been meaning to find an Irwin specific forum anyway so I guess I need to stop procrastinating on that.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by patagoniadave

This is an unresearched question. MY apologies if it's been discussed to death already. I'm glad to go read old threads, but don't have the Google search option in my phone that I can find.

My halyards are internal. The guy that took me sailing Saturday told me that it's an old trick to let some tension of the jib halyard when anchored. He also set the tension on the main.

They are slapping around in the mast. If it's proper to do this, and the movement in the mast will not cause chafe, I'll learn to tune it out. If it's bad, I'll crawl out now and tighten.

On a possibly related note, since that sail, a fairly loud creak has developed in the bathroom wall directly under the mast. It only happens when little waves make the boat rock directly side to side. I think the standing rigging is slightly loose, and my rigger is hopefully coming Tuesday.

Thanks for any thoughts.

Take those damn halyards OFF the sail when not in use and move them to a secure spot and tighten so they don't bang on things. I HATE the lazy people who leave those halyards banging on the boat and go home to let the rest of us listen to them!

[patagoniadave]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Take those damn halyards OFF the sail when not in use and move them to a secure spot and tighten so they don't bang on things. I HATE the lazy people who leave those halyards banging on the boat and go home to let the rest of us listen to them!

The main halyard is off, but it was still banging on the interior when the boat was rocking. So I tightened it.

I don't think I can disconnect the Jib because it is a roller furling, but I also tightened the tension for the sloshing reasons.

[Clivevon]

Hope you find out what is causing the creaking. As has been said, check your compression post base under the saloon floor.
By thew way, tying off your halyards (including flag halyards & lazyjacks) to stop them slapping the mast when in your berth is called "frapping the halyards". Probably derived from the French "frapper", meaning "to hit".
Not frapping your halyards (so causing annoyance & disturbed sleep to your neighbours) is always an unfailing sign of a thoughtless lazy ******* s***** lazy son of a ***** sailor.
Did I say lazy?
Sloppy, too.

[Clivevon]

Or unhook them & move them away from the mast.

[patagoniadave]

Originally Posted by Don C L

So your boat has a "compression post" I believe which is a post of wood or metal that supports the deck where the mast sits, down to some kind of block under the floor (cabin sole) that rests on the top of the inside of the hull where the keel meets the hull. See if you can see in there and see if there is any rot or rust or any problems. If the mast is able to compress that under pressure that makes your whole standing rigging, shrouds on the sides and stays on the bow and stern, become looser. I am not familiar with how Irwins were constructed but from what I have just read, I would guess there are many ways the hull and bulkheads could be looser than most and allowing movement that creates the creaking. I would check the chainplates which are the metal tabs bolted to the bulkheads that the shrouds attach to. See if they show any corrosion, but also see if it looks like there has been leaking that has allowed the wood to rot. (Take some pictures if you can.) If so that needs to be repaired. There is a tremendous amount of force transferred from the mast and rigging to the hull when the boat heels and is pitching in choppy seas. The mast has a lot of compression force downward on it and the bulkheads must support that strain laterally as well. Be sure your balsa cored deck has not suffered from leaks as well, the deck actually does contribute to the strength of the whole structure as well. The bulkheads, chainplates and compression post and mast base must all be solid. The bulkhead walls are a very important part of the structural integrity of the boat, even more than a load bearing wall in a house. In an older boat, chances are good that some of that has become less than solid over time, especially if there have been leaks. From what I have read, it can be hard to see how the bulkheads are bonded to the hull in your boat but I'd bend my head around inside the head or hanging locker to see how it looks and to see if there is any separation. I hope some Irwin owners will chime in here. You might just google Citation 34 for owners groups and more info on construction.
https://www.practical-sailor.com/sai...in-citation-34
Or you could start a thread with Irwin Citation 34 in the title to catch the eye of owners who can give you tips about dealing with the creaks.

Ok, I was able to put eyes on at least one side of all but one chain plait. What I could see was really clean and solid looking.

I found one bulkhead connector that I could see. It's a 4x8x3\8 plate bolted to the bulkhead on one half, and the cabin on the other. Also looked very clean and solid.

One of the reasons I bought this boat was that the owner was borderline ocd with care and maintenance.

That being said, the shower drain is literally at the intersection of the bulkhead and compression post, and I do see evidence of caulking repair at the drain. Seems a sketchy engineering choice to put the drain next to important structural components, but I am also trying to figure out why the keel bolts are in the bilge, below the line if what the pump can drain. In other words, always in water.

I cannot get to the compression post base or other bulkhead connection without exploratory surgery. I'm at a loss to see how you can get to the post base without cutting a hole in the fiberglass floor. I'm going to see if my fiber optic camera made the trip down, there is a small gap between the cabin sole and the top of a keel fiberglass tub in the bilge. I couldn't see through it, but the camera would fit. I think the camera is back in az though.

Thanks again for the feedback.

[patagoniadave]

Originally Posted by Clivevon

Hope you find out what is causing the creaking. As has been said, check your compression post base under the saloon floor.
By thew way, tying off your halyards (including flag halyards & lazyjacks) to stop them slapping the mast when in your berth is called "frapping the halyards". Probably derived from the French "frapper", meaning "to hit".
Not frapping your halyards (so causing annoyance & disturbed sleep to your neighbours) is always an unfailing sign of a thoughtless lazy ******* s***** lazy son of a ***** sailor.
Did I say lazy?
Sloppy, too.

I had all the externals secured, the noise bothers me as much as anyone, and I sleep here every night. It was the internals that caused the latest issues.

[patagoniadave]

Originally Posted by Clivevon

Or unhook them & move them away from the mast.

They are internal. Inside the mast. They were banging in the inside as the boat rocked. I tightened them.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by patagoniadave

They are internal. Inside the mast. They were banging in the inside as the boat rocked. I tightened them.

Mine are internal. Remove the halyard from the sail and away from the mast and then crank it TIGHT. There is nothing else you can do except remove the halyard.

[captrick2011]

I just use bungee strapped to the stays it helps.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by captrick2011

I just use bungee strapped to the stays it helps.

You must not stay on the boat, because it doesn't really. Why is it too much work to just take the halyard off the sail and move it?

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

You must not stay on the boat, because it doesn't really. Why is it too much work to just take the halyard off the sail and move it?

Because with a roller furler you have to drop the sail. The only halyard that can come off is the main, and I think that's covered.

Besides which, there's also the spin halyard and the topping lift going through the mast.

So in general, there are at least four lines in the mast. Any left slack can bang. Take whatever end you can elsewhere away from the mast, and that alleviates external banging. Tighten up all halyards and lines and that will eliminate banging up to maybe 25 knots of wind.

I also have lazy jacks along the outside of the mast, those get bungeed to a stay.

My boat is dead quiet. My neighbor's boats too- if they aren't, I make them quiet.

[sailorboy1]

the roller furler has nothing to do with it, that is super tight

None of my internal lines (main halyard, spinnaker halyard, topping lift) ever bang inside the mast. If not underway the main and spinnaker halyard are off the sails and moved away from the mast.

Last week it was blowing 30 knots at the marina and it was a bang contest here. I walked the dock and all were lines attached to the sails and half had useless bungee cords.