Help selecting a first boat

[Rudavies]

TrentePieds I'll be honest but you just started speaking a foreign language to me. I have no idea what a keel stepped mast or a tabernacle are.... Hopefully mr Google does though.

[TrentePieds]

A "keel-stepped" mast ("stick") is a mast that goes through the deck of the boat and steps off with its bottom end ("heel") on the keel of the boat. It cannot therefore be raised and lowered conveniently, which is one of your requirements.

A "tabernacle" is a hinge arrangement on the deck of the boat that takes the heel of the mast which, in consequence, can be swung forward or aft in order to lower it. It is in the nature of the measurements of boats that in order to trailer it, a boat with a lowered mast must have the mast released from the tabernacle and repositioned so that it doesn't stick further aft of the boat than the law will permit. The hinge pin in the tabernacle is therefore removable in order to permit that repositioning.

In order to control any thwartships movement of the mast as it is being raised and lowered, an appliance called a "sheer leg" is required and in order to control geometry of the hoisting gear an appliance called a "gin pole" is required. Sounds fearsome, but in reality it is simple :-) These appliances can be made from aluminum tubing or even from wood, and they stow is some sort of retainers on the trailer when not in actual use.

To raise and lower a mast by oneself it is almost essential to have a winch of some kind. It can be a simple hand cranked one like the ones that are used to pull power boats forward to position them on their trailers. You just need a little mechanical advantage as the mast is being raised the first ten or fifteen degrees. After that it becomes quite easy.

If you remember your trigonometry lessons from school, it is quite easy to design a system that will make raising and lowering the mast a one-man job :-)

There are some trailerable boats that have these things already taken care of. In a fashion. The ones I have seen have had tackle that was more of an excuse than workable appliances.


TrentePieds

[Rudavies]

Thanks TrentePieds for the info. I'm looking at the sailboat data on the list of boats and seeing fairly different displacement to ballast, sail to displacement and displacement to length ratios. Am I right in thinking the higher the displacement to ballast the more stable and the higher the sail to displacement and length to displacement the better the boat will perform in light winds?

[TrentePieds]

Yes, in broad terms you are right. But remember that these are design parameters that are meaningful to yacht designers, even to dinghy designers, but for the practical sailor they are but “rules of thumb”. So by all means pay attention to them, but don't get hung up on them. For large boats they have critical importance, but for dinghies, not so much :-)

The sort of boat you are contemplating is barely more than a dinghy, so yes, a large sail plan in relation to the boat's laden weight is of benefit in light airs. But if you are going to be sailing her in briney water within trailering reach of Brum, you'll get very little light weather :-). “Downhill” - with the wind behind you - the SA/D ratio is not going to be terribly important for a boat of this class because like in a dinghy you'd probably be wearing a spinnacker, and that don't count in the SA/D :-) “Uphill” - “beating to weather” by the maneuver called “tacking” - the SA/D will be rendered trivial by stability considerations. So, in brief: More sail to the pound displacement is theoretically advantageous, provided you can reef down to deal with the resultant stability problems.

The “ballast ratio” is also important in large boats but in dinghies and boats that have barely grown out of their dinghyhood, less so. In dinghies, as you know, YOU are the ballast and you move about from one side to the other of the boat to keep her on her feet. In the sort of boat you are contemplating, the need to do that is rather less, but you and the boys are nevertheless going to get a fair bit of exercise :-).

But there is more to stability that ballast ratio. Ballast stability is one thing. “Form stability” is another. They work as a team, but in dinghies, overall stability is almost all form stability while in big boats ballast stability plays the greater rôle. Form stability is a function of the particular hull shape, particularly the cross sections of the hull at points along its length. Remember also that in a swing-keel boat, or a dagger board boat, with some ballast in the keel/board, the effectiveness of any given amount of ballast will depend on the keel's/board's position due to the changes in moment arm as the keel/board is adjusted. So again, the designer's numbers give an indication, but they ain't “real life”.

As you have referred to this boat, soon to be acquired, as your “first” boat, don't be too taken in by design technicalities. Boats of this kind all sail about the same, unless you are a gung-ho racing type. The important thing for you, IMO, is that the thing will float reliably and keep the sticky-up bits sticking up:-) A crucial desideratum is that your wife should feel secure, both personally and in respect of the nippers. 4 years old is maybe two years short of ideal as a starting age, and his mother is going to be on tenterhooks all the time you are in the boat. Sacrificing a bit of gung-ho sailing ability in order to ensure that Mom can be at ease with the experience seems to me to be eminently worthwhile because fright-less pleasure had at this time will be the foundation for a long pleasurable life on the ocean wave - when you get that REAL cruising boat :-)!

TP

[SharkBite]

Hi Russell


Welcome to the forum. I'm also new here and also from the UK (south coast).



I know it was already suggested and dismisse, but I would say that a small motor cruiser fits the bill for you. My Picton Domino sounds perfect in all respects - other than it has a motor and not sails. I would agree that for the kids benefit, it may be better to bite the bullet for now, and get a decent toy, which for the money you've indicated is very possible, rather than worry too much about getting the perfect longer term sail boat.


That said, another option you might consider is a DIY or DFY (done for you) conversion of a motor boat into a bespoke sail boat. Perhaps not so different to modifying an existing sail boat to self-manage the mast.


Just throwing it out there, as nothing else seems to fit the bill as yet.


Keep us posted on what you decide in the end, and good luck. The kids will love it - whatever it is you get!

[Rudavies]

Thanks for the feedback TP. I'll focus on the displacement vs ballast then as the important one and also the overall displacement and beam as keys to stability. I'll aim for the displacement to be towards the top end of my weights at 650-750kg and the higher displacement balance figures unless she's beamy.

I think this therefore rules out the mirror mk 2, nimrod, sailfish, precision 18 and sand piper so progress at culling my list.

I'm left with the following

Prelude 19
Manga 19
Swift 18
Pirate express
Oday 192
Oday 20
Matilda 19/20
Cracksman catamaran
West wight potter 19

The Matilda is low on the displacement/ ballast ratio compared to the others but is really beach at almost 8ft does anyone have any info on how stable these really are.

Looking at the sail area to displacement figures I've read that above 20 is classed as likely to be a lively vessel. What exactly do they mean by that.

[TrentePieds]

SA/D ranges widely as you have seen. "Lively" is often a euphemism for "tippy", what sailors would call "tender" as opposed to "stiff". SA/D (of a sloop) is defined as the "area of the full mainsail plus the area of the fore-triangle" It does NOT therefore tell you anything about the amount of actual canvas the boat may carry at any time. If you are wearing a full main and, say, a 150% genoa jib you'll be carrying more canvas than indicated in the SA/D, i.e. the ACTUAL SA/D, as opposed to the DESIGN SA/D will therefore be greater. Come down to the second reef in the main and a storm jib, and you will be wearing rather less than the design SA/D. The deportment of the boat will reflect these differences both in terms of her ability to stay on her feet, and in terms of how she responds to the rudder and the "trim" of the sheets - the lines that control the set of the sails.

TrentePieds is a pilot house motor sailer. Her SA/D is 12.5. Clocks in a 11K lbs laden on a 25 foot waterline and an 8 foot waterline beam. Ballast ratio is 40%. Modern "cruiser/racer" sloops, which are neither fish nor fowl from a dedicated cruising man's perspective nor from a dedicated racing man's, have SA/Ds of something like 16 or 17. Flat our racing keelboats [not dinghies - they are special :-)] have SA/Ds north of 20. By the time you get to 22, the boat would be pretty outré :-). Comfort: low-ish SA/D. Speed and weatherliness: high-ish SA/D I might add that for your keeper boat you might find that a pilot house cruiser modelled (having a hull shape) after the Falmouth fishing boats of old might be a good choice and we can come back to the reasons for that later, if you like.

Now, remember that neither SA/D or ballast ratio is what will keep a boat "footing". It's the skipper's/helmsman's savvy and ability that does that. Savvy skippers do NOT wear full working canvas all the time, which is why SA/D becomes somewhat academic. Very often you can make better speed over the ground, make less leeway and reduce heel and consequent discomfort as well as the crew's anxiety by being modest about the amount of canvas you wear. That's where decent reefing arrangements come in. The are a great many of these subtler aspects of boat handling that need to be taken into consideration, and these things will become apparent to you as you gain experience.

So just where is it you intend to sail this little boat?

TP

[Rudavies]

The plan is to sail Poole Harbour initially as I know the area well, maybe take trips out to Studland. Longer weeks might attempt the Isle of white from Poole once I have more experience. Otherwise with it being strapped to a trailer I can give Exmouth Dartmouth Plymouth Falmouth a go, might try south and north Wales, over to Norfolk and may also give Rutland water and Windemere or Scottish lochs a go. That's the joy with a trailer sailer and being based in the midlands most of them are about the same distance from me as the others give or take an hr so I can see where weather will be best and head that way. I'm hoping I'll be able to work out a couple of locations i can home base from around the UK to roam from and have little adventures

[TrentePieds]

Then I think the O'day 20 would serve your purposes really well. It is at the upper limit of your towing capacity, I think, but it is also at the nether end of your other selection criteria. If you go to a lighter boat, you may find that those other criteria cannot be met.

I am cognizant of the nature of restrained budgets, but all things considered, a slightly more competent towing vehicle might have to be considered? Particularly since the lochs and the lakes aren't quite as near as Powell's Pool in Sutton Park :-)?

As for the O'Day, I've never sailed one, but I have extensive experience on another American boat called the Cal 20. I judge the O'Day to be rather better furnished, but in terms of handling, the two boats are likely to be like peas in a pod.


The Cal20 is essentially a "dinghy with a deck". In consequence it is a perfect little boat for ab initio training, and that is what I, as a sailing instructor for a major sailing school, used it for. It provided just the right combination of the dinghy's immediate response to helm and sail trim, while it gave enuff lead time twixt action and response to permit students to divine what the boat was gonna do, and why it would do it.

Tho its accommodations were more primitive than those of the O'Day, it was adequate for weekend trips, and if you didn't press it, it was a perfectly safe little family boat.

The design parameters of the two boats are very, very similar. You will find them on the Sailboat Specifications and Data site.

The O'Day has the additional attraction that it is a swing-keel design, and in places like Poole and other shallow estuaries, you can "take the mud" perfectly satisfactorily and safely. The O'day also comes ex factory with a tabernacle. I would expect, however, that sheer legs and gin pole would have been supplied by a previous owner if indeed your chosen boat has them. If they are "roll yer own" they may or may not be well engineered and handy to use, but as I said in a previous post, we can come back to that.

Cheers

TP

[Rudavies]

Hi TP
They do look pretty good but only come up rarely just like the cracksman catamaran and west Wight potter 19. Sailfish, swift, prelude,manta and Matilda seem to come up more regularly where I am but often in need of some love. I think I'll just have to get lucky to drop on one of the O'Day's.