Help with GIGANTIC headsail on Oday 23

[timothytrespas]

Hello.
I have picked up an Oday 23 for free.
It came with two sails.
The headsail is on a furling roller and reaches up to the top of the head stay.
When rolling it out I was a little confused to see that it is so large it can reach all the way back to the cockpit!
I’ve only ever had a smaller headsail that reached as far back as the front of the shrouds/rigging.
Ok
But this goes so far it gets wrapped around the rigging and over the spreaders.
I don’t think this is correct.

My boat has two of those things where the pulley block can be moved along a track and they are located as follows:

A shorter track about 1 foot with a small block is on each side of the deck at the point before the shrouds.
A longer track of about 3 feet is attached to the deck at the rear of the cockpit.

The first try had the sail in the first small track but that seamed wrong as I could not get it tight and it flopped about until I turned and it filled with wind.

The second try I have it going through the second the spreaders sure to make problems.

I have no money for new or used sails.
I can’t honestly sew anything presently.
So I’m wondering besides changing sails, what can I do?
How am I supposed to rig this large sail
Oh, it has a large 3’x2’ plastic window sewn into the bottom middle I imagine so one could sop beyond this huge sail.

How should it be rigged?

What type of wind is is for(speed)?

As it is on a furling roller, in order to reef it I would simply roll it in more?

Please explain it as if to a child.
I am only a few years into learning to sail and maintaining a boat and am still learning terminology as well as correct how to.

Thank you in advance.

Timothy

[psk125]

You have a genoa jib, which overlaps the shrouds and goes 'way back towards the stern of the boat. This provides more sail area, which is useful in places with light wind. The sheets need to go outside of the shrouds (port and starboard) and back to the jib-car block on the toerail track, and then to the winches. Genoas can be tricky to tack because the sail and the sheets can get snagged on the shrouds, things on deck, or on the mast. You may want to move the jib-car block further aft to have the sail set properly. When it is sheeted at the correct angle, the jib will luff evenly all along the forestay at the same time. If the not, the jib will start luffing at the top or the bottom instead of all along the forestay. You need to move the car forward or aft until it's in the right place, and the right place depends upon how fast the wind is blowing.

[hugosalt]

All good advice above.
If genoa problematic when tacking, roll it up some when tacking and then out again.
If sailing in heavy winds or uncomfortable with large sail just sail with genoa reefed.
May not be best sail shape but not to worry you'll be sailing.
Wecome to Cruisersforum!

[Jamme]

I think oday 23 go all the way up to 150% genoas, see image below. Welcome and fair winds!

[Nekton73]

The small forward track is for a jib 100% of foretriangle or smaller that does not overlap past the mast, such as a blade or working jib, and would be sheeted inside the shrouds.

The long aft track is for your gigantic genoa, sheeted outside.
As mentioned, genoa for light to moderate wind.


You said your boat came with two sails. Do you mean two headsails, or two sails being the main and the genoa?
If the former, is the second headsail a smaller non-overlapping jib? If so, I would suggest practising taking down your giant genoa when winds start to build past about 12-15 kts and raising your working jib. Or, if you know the forecast is for higher winds before you go out just switch before leaving the dock. Life is so much less stressfull with a headsail that is working for you and not against you, and sailing with a half rolled baggy 150% genoa in +15kts is less fun. If the winds die, you can always drop the small one and raise the genoa.
I have a spare set of sheets on my working jib, in the bag ready to go, so when I want to raise it I can just run them and not worry about changing over from my larger sail. For a small boat like yours that is a minor expense that I would suggest is worth it... assuming that you have two headsails that is.

[TrentePieds]

Timothy:

You need to go back to some really, really basic stuff!

There are many ways to teach, so pay attention to me, and you won't get confused. Ignore any comment that attempts to “refine” my explanation. At this stage of your knowledge of sailing such “refinements” will only confuse you.

The first thing you need to know is that we have something we call the “point of sail”. For you, for now, there are only three points of sail.

You can have the wind blowing from 90º to the way the boat is pointing. From one side of the boat or the other. You are then said to be “on a BEAM reach”. If the wind comes over the port side of the boat you are on a “port beam reach”, if the wind comes over the starboard side you are on a “starboard beam reach”. When you are on a beam reach the sails are working in a certain way that is different from the way they work on the other two points of sail. They need to be trimmed in a certain way that we will get back to.

You can have the wind blowing from LESS THAN 90º to the way the boat is pointing. You are then said to be “on a CLOSE reach”. If the wind comes over the port side of the boat you are on a “port close reach”, if the wind comes over the starboard side you are on a “starboard close reach” When you are on a close reach the sails are working in a certain way that is different from the way they work on the other two points of sail. They need to be trimmed in a certain way that we will get back to.

You can have the wind blowing from MORE THAN 90º to the way the boat is pointing. You are then said to be “on a BROAD reach”. If the wind comes over the port side of the boat you are on a “port broad reach”, if the wind comes over the starboard side you are on a “starboard broad reach” When you are on a broad reach the sails are working in a certain way that is different from the way they work on the other two points of sail. They need to be trimmed in a certain way that we will get back to.

Just focus on learning those things. As I said: Ignore any comment that is meant to “refine” the above!

There is, strictly speaking, a fourth point of sail, which is called “running dead before”. That is a potentially very dangerous point of sail, and we will give it special treatment when we get that far!

Now let's look at the sail trim for the three kinds of reaches:

When you are on a broad reach, let out the sails by slacking off the sheets (the ropes that control the “loose” end of each sail which is called “the clew”) until the sails are square to the wind. It is immaterial what angle the sails form with the boat itself. They just have to be square to the wind. That is because when you are on a broad reach the sails just work as windbags creating resistance to the wind. The aerodynamics involved are trivial and can, at this stage, be ignored.

Now imagine that you are on a port BROAD reach, and by using the rudder you make the boat turn so you come to a port BEAM reach. As you do so, the sails will “spill their wind” and collapse. Sailors say that sails “LUFF”. They will not then drive the boat, and the remedy for that is to haul in on the sheets until the sails just fill with wind and go quite again. At this point aerodynamics are beginning to become important. The sailmaker has allowed for that in the shaping of the sails, but YOU have to do your part by minding your trim! Because the wind incessantly changes direction back and forth around its mean direction, you have to watch the fore edge of the sails (which is called “THE LUFF” of the sails). If it begins to luff (to collapse) you have to haul in on the sheet of the sail till the luffing stops. You have to trim the sails continuously, so they are just about to luff, but don't quite do it.

Now imagine that you change the boat's “heading” (the compass direction in which it points) even more, so you come to a CLOSE reach. Again, you have to tauten (haul in) the sheets until the sails are just stop luffing. But now aerodynamics become quite important because the total “drive” generated by the sails, is dependent on what happens in the “gap” between the two sails, the jib and the main. Again, the sailmaker will have largely dealt with that in shaping the sails, but you have to do your bit by trimming them correctly.

It is because there is such a close interplay between the main and the jib in a modern sloop (a boat with only the two sails, the main and the jib) that we now have to turn the discussion to the different kinds of jibs, including the one you have: A roller furling genoa jib.

But work calls. I'll have to get back to it later if you would like me to continue.

TrentePieds.

[timothytrespas]

Originally Posted by Nekton73

The small forward track is for a jib 100% of foretriangle or smaller that does not overlap past the mast, such as a blade or working jib, and would be sheeted inside the shrouds.

The long aft track is for your gigantic genoa, sheeted outside.
As mentioned, genoa for light to moderate wind.


You said your boat came with two sails. Do you mean two headsails, or two sails being the main and the genoa?
If the former, is the second headsail a smaller non-overlapping jib? If so, I would suggest practising taking down your giant genoa when winds start to build past about 12-15 kts and raising your working jib. Or, if you know the forecast is for higher winds before you go out just switch before leaving the dock. Life is so much less stressfull with a headsail that is working for you and not against you, and sailing with a half rolled baggy 150% genoa in +15kts is less fun. If the winds die, you can always drop the small one and raise the genoa.
I have a spare set of sheets on my working jib, in the bag ready to go, so when I want to raise it I can just run them and not worry about changing over from my larger sail. For a small boat like yours that is a minor expense that I would suggest is worth it... assuming that you have two headsails that is.

Sadly the two sails the boat came with are the mainsail and the genoa gib headsail.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by timothytrespas

When rolling it out I was a little confused to see that it is so large it can reach all the way back to the cockpit!
I’ve only ever had a smaller headsail that reached as far back as the front of the shrouds/rigging.
Ok
But this goes so far it gets wrapped around the rigging and over the spreaders.
I don’t think this is correct.

It's supposed to be like that. Mine is like that, on a 38' boat. It's huge.

You don't have to unroll it all the way. Just let out enough that it reaches back to the spreaders and sail it that way at first. You can experiment with letting out more sail when you get more comfortable with it.

How am I supposed to rig this large sail

Use the forward/inside tracks when you only unroll the sail partway (to the shrouds)

Use the aft/outside tracks when you are using more of the sail. Move the car forward on a run, aft when close hauled.

Oh, it has a large 3’x2’ plastic window sewn into the bottom middle I imagine so one could sop beyond this huge sail.

Those are useful when the sail is cut low.

What type of wind is is for(speed)?

I would expect that you would only use the whole sail in 10 knots or less.

As it is on a furling roller, in order to reef it I would simply roll it in more?

Yes. Shape won't be as good, but it should still sail reasonably well up to 15 knots or so.

[timothytrespas]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Timothy:

You need to go back to some really, really basic stuff!

There are many ways to teach, so pay attention to me, and you won't get confused. Ignore any comment that attempts to “refine” my explanation. At this stage of your knowledge of sailing such “refinements” will only confuse you.

The first thing you need to know is that we have something we call the “point of sail”. For you, for now, there are only three points of sail.

You can have the wind blowing from 90º to the way the boat is pointing. From one side of the boat or the other. You are then said to be “on a BEAM reach”. If the wind comes over the port side of the boat you are on a “port beam reach”, if the wind comes over the starboard side you are on a “starboard beam reach”. When you are on a beam reach the sails are working in a certain way that is different from the way they work on the other two points of sail. They need to be trimmed in a certain way that we will get back to.

You can have the wind blowing from LESS THAN 90º to the way the boat is pointing. You are then said to be “on a CLOSE reach”. If the wind comes over the port side of the boat you are on a “port close reach”, if the wind comes over the starboard side you are on a “starboard close reach” When you are on a close reach the sails are working in a certain way that is different from the way they work on the other two points of sail. They need to be trimmed in a certain way that we will get back to.

You can have the wind blowing from MORE THAN 90º to the way the boat is pointing. You are then said to be “on a BROAD reach”. If the wind comes over the port side of the boat you are on a “port broad reach”, if the wind comes over the starboard side you are on a “starboard broad reach” When you are on a broad reach the sails are working in a certain way that is different from the way they work on the other two points of sail. They need to be trimmed in a certain way that we will get back to.

Just focus on learning those things. As I said: Ignore any comment that is meant to “refine” the above!

There is, strictly speaking, a fourth point of sail, which is called “running dead before”. That is a potentially very dangerous point of sail, and we will give it special treatment when we get that far!

Now let's look at the sail trim for the three kinds of reaches:

When you are on a broad reach, let out the sails by slacking off the sheets (the ropes that control the “loose” end of each sail which is called “the clew”) until the sails are square to the wind. It is immaterial what angle the sails form with the boat itself. They just have to be square to the wind. That is because when you are on a broad reach the sails just work as windbags creating resistance to the wind. The aerodynamics involved are trivial and can, at this stage, be ignored.

Now imagine that you are on a port BROAD reach, and by using the rudder you make the boat turn so you come to a port BEAM reach. As you do so, the sails will “spill their wind” and collapse. Sailors say that sails “LUFF”. They will not then drive the boat, and the remedy for that is to haul in on the sheets until the sails just fill with wind and go quite again. At this point aerodynamics are beginning to become important. The sailmaker has allowed for that in the shaping of the sails, but YOU have to do your part by minding your trim! Because the wind incessantly changes direction back and forth around its mean direction, you have to watch the fore edge of the sails (which is called “THE LUFF” of the sails). If it begins to luff (to collapse) you have to haul in on the sheet of the sail till the luffing stops. You have to trim the sails continuously, so they are just about to luff, but don't quite do it.

Now imagine that you change the boat's “heading” (the compass direction in which it points) even more, so you come to a CLOSE reach. Again, you have to tauten (haul in) the sheets until the sails are just stop luffing. But now aerodynamics become quite important because the total “drive” generated by the sails, is dependent on what happens in the “gap” between the two sails, the jib and the main. Again, the sailmaker will have largely dealt with that in shaping the sails, but you have to do your bit by trimming them correctly.

It is because there is such a close interplay between the main and the jib in a modern sloop (a boat with only the two sails, the main and the jib) that we now have to turn the discussion to the different kinds of jibs, including the one you have: A roller furling genoa jib.

But work calls. I'll have to get back to it later if you would like me to continue.

TrentePieds.

Thank you.
Your explanations are understandable.
I have learned there exist points of sail
And that sail shape as effected by trim ( by trim I believe you are referring to how much the sail is cranked down and also by where it is cranked down to-as it has a moving block on a track that effects shape and therefore forward power)
So far I have only tried the headsail alone.
I thought I could learn to control the boat with one sail and after I manage that I would begin to raise the main sail as well.
Is this reasonable?
I have been watching many videos and it looks so easy.
But when I’m out on the water I am not yet sure of myself and controlling the boat under sail.

I appreciate you willingness to respond and explain it to me like this.

Thanks again.

Also, where should I set the block on the track to get the proper angle (for the sail not for the sheet, yes?)

Should it be closer to the front or aft and why?
(You can see the positions of the tracks in the previous photo, both aft of the running rigging)

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by timothytrespas

T
I thought I could learn to control the boat with one sail and after I manage that I would begin to raise the main sail as well.
Is this reasonable?

No, the boat will handle more easily with both sails. Start on a day without much wind.

Should it be closer to the front or aft and why?
(You can see the positions of the tracks in the previous photo, both aft of the running rigging)

See my previous post

[Nekton73]

Yes, you can certainly learn to sail with just one sail for now, but (my humble opinion) make it the Main. Once you have mastered hoisting and taking it down, and sailing around with it on all points of sail, and trimming it well... then ad the foresail.
Do you have a reef (or two) in your main? If so, make sure you have lines rigged so can put it (them) in and practise doing that, even if the wind doesn't call for it.
You will build confidence in your boat handling and sail trimming through this process and when winds rise enough to warrant putting in a reef you won't be as worried to do it, and may even enjoy being out in it because you have control and are confident.


Great advice above re: just roll the genoa out far enough to be managed with the forward track and sheeted inside. Sail shape won't be the greatest but who cares, you will have enough to work with and tacking/gybing will be so much easier to learn than with the full sail out.


By the time you have mastered hoisting your main, rolling out a partial genoa, tacking, gybing, trimming, and dousing all your sails you will likely have gained enough skill to roll out that full genny on a light wind day and enjoy it. When the wind pipes up you will know how to roll it in, re-run your sheets, and sail on. If it blows more, a reef in the main... and so on.

[timothytrespas]

Great advice
Sadly at present I only have the one 15p headsail but I will keep my ears open for one as I live amongst a bunch of sailboat people most of whom do t sail their boats only live on them
Cheers