Heritage 46' opinions

[Danosimp3]

Ahoy, there is a 46' Heritage ketch for sale around $20k in my area. I've never heard of the builder. Any opinions on build quality or inherent problems. She looks a bit worn, but has nice lines. My intended use is live -aboard and Caribbean cruising. I prefer stability over performance and want a solid hull with no core below the deck. I am very handy and can repair/improve most systems. I'd like a sound platform to start from though.
Thanks

[Tim R.]

Is this the boat? http://tampa.craigslist.org/psc/boa/3507347364.html

If so, the seller forgets to mention the need for a fat checkbook. This boat will need time, effort and lots of money to make her beautiful again.

If she sunk, was she totaled by the insurance company? That can pose some troubles getting insurance or re-selling.

No offense but I would run from this one.

[skipmac]

Have to agree with Tim. If the boat has been sunk you are looking at a LOT of money OR a LOT of work and some money. If you plan to do it yourself it could take years to get this boat right.

New engine. $8-$10,000 just for the engine. Plus transmission, parts, couplings, shaft (?), plus installation could double that. But you would end up with a brand new engine.

Interior. If you're really lucky the existing bulkheads and walls are only cosmetically damaged. If you want the wood interior look you'll have to re-veneer the whole boat. If you don't care, paint it all. If the plywood walls and bulkheads delaminate you have a huge project.

Wiring. If the boat sank in salt water (probably the case in Hudson FL) you might need to rewire the whole boat. Many hundreds or even a few thou just for the wire. Plus many, many, many hours or dollars to install it. Might have to replace all outlets, lights, switches, main switch panel. Another couple thou plus time or money to install.

Comes down to your skills and time. If you have little money, lots of skills and lots of time then this might work for you.

[Richard Jordan]

Charlie Morgan was the builder.

[Danosimp3]

i see you guys found the craig's listing.
"46' Heritage West Indies Center Cockpit Cutter Rigged Ketch $19,000.

This is a 1987 Heritage West Indies 46' Custom made yacht. By looking at the price you must realize that this is a project boat. There is a 1977 sloop ready to go in Oregon listed for $149,900. This boat sank at a dock and was refloated the next day. We have cleaned the interior of this boat from bow to stern with bleach water and ran a big dehumidifier in the boat for two weeks to get the moisture out. We have also done some of the carpentry work that needed to be done. There is no engine but the standing rigging , mast, booms and hull are in good condition. There is damage to the bow rail and bow. The bow has been repaired but should be redone. The person who painted the boat had no clue as to how to prep or paint a boat. The paint is peeling. I am putting this all in so you know exactly what you will be looking at. Not to waste your time or mine. This boat is for the person who has the time, patience and the ability to work on boats. With some time and effort you could have yourself a beautiful ocean going yacht. I have a lot more pictures if interested call Jim at 727-457-8141

Year 1987
Length 46'8"
Beam 15'
Draft about 6' says 7'2" on documentation papers (not correct)
Sails
Jib good condition but stained
Staysail on boom has 3 holes were cigarette burnt through three layers. It's in really good shape. I have pictures.
Mainsail is on a boom roller and is torn across the top not in good shape.
Mizzen sail needs stitching along leech but in good shape.
Storm jib Hank on looks like new"

In an email, the seller stated the following to me.
"it's a 1987 Heritage West Indies. Yes at bthat price there is a lot to be done. It needs a bottom job engine an transmission, rewired and tanks and hoses replaced If you would like i can send you some pics. I have done some work on her since i took the pics .trying to get her ready to paint. also fixing some of the damage where she rubbed against pilings. "

Tim R. and Skipmac, I do have little money, and lots of skill and time. My experience extends to a total bare hull restoration of a 26' Reinell. That cost me $9000 and 14 months of my time. Given all the potential problems, and that I would do ALL work myself, any guess on what the "cant pass it up" price would be?

Also, the engine, is it reasonable to repair a saltwater submerged diesel or is that a replacement situation?

Is it also a reasonable assumption that "sunk at the dock" is the kiss of death?

[Cheechako]

It may depend on what diesel. You are talking a rebuild though. If a Perkins for example, you can buy new sleeves and pistons etc. The head will need rebuilt (if not too corroded) all electrical peripherals will have to be replaced. etc.
Many people on this forum have taken a boat that wasnt sunk and ended up doing all the things you would need to do, so it's not impossible. But a super long haul and real expensive. Especially for a boat that size.
I think you have to ask yourself if you really need a boat that big? You could easily buy it for $20k and sink 30k in the first year. Does it have good sails etc? Or you could take that 50k and go sailing in a boat that's ready..... Think about your 26 Reinell and figure about 10 times that much work and money....

[skipmac]

Agree on the engine. Depends on which one. If it is a classic like a Perkins 4-108 may be worthwhile rebuilding. Be careful of older Westerbekes. They will kill you on the parts unless you can figure out what basic block they used and buy the parts from a tractor dealer instead of a marine source.

Another suggestion. This would likely be a multi year project. Find a place away from a boat yard or marina and have the boat towed there to work on. If you have room and understanding neighbors your back yard is best. If not far from the boat yard should cost about $1000-$1500 including hauling at the boat yard and towing to your place. Since a boat yard would probably charge at least $200-$300/month storage you will save a lot in storage plus travel time over the years.

To me a deal breaker would be if you have to start doing any serious structural work like replacing bulkheads, deck, etc.

To figure out if the boat is worth it look at what the same model sells for that's in good shape. Look at several to make sure you get a realistic price idea. Then add up all the parts you have to buy, repair or replace then double that. The reason, no matter how careful you add up all the costs you will inevitably find more parts you need, ones you buy will cost more and you will seriously underestimate the cost of caulk, sandpaper, paint, resins, glue, and stuff in general.

Then figure something for your time, even if it's just minimum wage since you could be working at a paying job instead of fixing the boat. If you just enjoy working on the boat then you can to some degree ignore this.

So add up the numbers to repair and compare to a 46 unsunk and if you don't come out at least 30-40% lower then it's probably not worth it.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Agree on the engine. Depends on which one. If it is a classic like a Perkins 4-108 may be worthwhile rebuilding. Be careful of older Westerbekes. They will kill you on the parts unless you can figure out what basic block they used and buy the parts from a tractor dealer instead of a marine source.

Another suggestion. This would likely be a multi year project. Find a place away from a boat yard or marina and have the boat towed there to work on. If you have room and understanding neighbors your back yard is best. If not far from the boat yard should cost about $1000-$1500 including hauling at the boat yard and towing to your place. Since a boat yard would probably charge at least $200-$300/month storage you will save a lot in storage plus travel time over the years.

To me a deal breaker would be if you have to start doing any serious structural work like replacing bulkheads, deck, etc.

To figure out if the boat is worth it look at what the same model sells for that's in good shape. ....(omit)
So add up the numbers to repair and compare to a 46 unsunk and if you don't come out at least 30-40% lower then it's probably not worth it.

Yeah, and figure the selling price is 25-40% less than asking price too! So if they want $100k for an unsunk one, figure $70k. then if you spend $50k fixing the sunk one... yep $20k for the sunk one is about right, not a bargain. Buy the unsunk one on the payment plan and sail instead playing boat worker!

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Yeah, and figure the selling price is 25-40% less than asking price too! So if they want $100k for an unsunk one, figure $70k. then if you spend $50k fixing the sunk one... yep $20k for the sunk one is about right, not a bargain. Buy the unsunk one on the payment plan and sail instead playing boat worker!

Good advise and at times wonder if I should have done the same.

Just to establish my credentials as a certified boat fixer upper and possible idiot, I'm in the third year of overhauling my boat and it wasn't even sunk. It was pretty neglected and I had to spend a lot of time cleaning up spilled oil and diesel, molded and smelly everything and throwing away 25 years of accumulated junk.

The biggest project was the engine. Runs great, no smoke, burns no oil but the PO let the cooling water drip on the block and transmission for years so externally it was a rusted mess. Had to strip it down to the bare block and clean metal and replace ever bracket and fitting on the engine and repaint But will also have all new hoses, fittings, and wiring so may be worthwhile.

So could have bought one for $25K more in much better shape but I knew I still had 4-5 years before retirement to work on the boat and also didn't have another $25K in one chunk at the time so went for the fixer upper.

The other benefit. When I'm done I will have invested in cash about what I would have spent for a boat in better condition. But I will also have brand new sails, rigging, refer, charger, batteries, etc which would not have been the case with a used boat no matter how good a condition.

So was it a good deal? Not if I count the time I've spent and what I could have earned in that time but I'm happy with the decision at this point. Ask me again in a few years.

[Danosimp3]

Thanks to everyone for the advice and input. I'll be passing on this one. May too much boat/problems for me at the moment.