How big is too big?

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

What I find is that the people stating "boat is too big" do not have a big boat, while none of the people with a big boat do so as they are all very happy with it. It seems that this is just a case of denouncing what they not have so as to not have to deal with the thought that there is something better out there

Based upon my few decades in the delivery trade, that has not applied to the majority of my long term clients over time… The more typical progression seems to have been for owners to continually step up in size, and with each increase, to sail the boats less, and pay me more to do so, instead… :-)

I have a fair bit of sailing on a couple of 'Ultimate Boats' in particular that were featured with considerable fanfare in cover story "Yacht Style" articles in CRUISING WORLD. One was the Trintella 50 named Boat of the Year in their annual contest, the other was the Lyman Morse Seguin 52 FAIRWEATHER pictured here…





Each boat represented the end of the line of progression for their owners, and both were for sale within about a year of having been splashed all over CW's glossy pages, and touted as the Latest and Greatest… Both owners had quit sailing, and made the switch to stinkpots… :-)

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Never.

If you can afford what you want, go get it.

Too big, get crew.

That seems to be an excellent recipe for sailing less, over time… The appeal of owning a boat that one must enlist crew to go sailing is completely lost on me, some of my most pleasurable times on the water have been those 'spur of the moment' daysails that the sheer size and complexity of many larger boats can often inhibit…

To your point, it's at least somewhat ironic - that at least here in the States - one of the fastest growing segments of the market is for the high-end daysailers that specifically cater to such an urge, and are designed to eliminate the need for additional crew...

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

Based upon my few decades in the delivery trade, that has not applied to the majority of my long term clients over time… The more typical progression seems to have been for owners to continually step up in size, and with each increase, to sail the boats less, and pay me more to do so, instead… :-)

It has more to do with the fact that many/most folks who buy yachts which cost over $2,000,000 have other interests, hobbies and business commitments that get in the way of sailing. Sailing is many times just "the flavor of the day" for them.

Example: We have a very good friend who spent over $2,000,000 to build his ultimate yacht on which he and his wife expected to "see the world" over a three year period. The boat is now on the hard awaiting their next adventure, because business concerns got in the way for two years.

They didn't give up sailing because the boat was too big. The two of them did just fine on their 55 footer for over a year.


Another example: We purchased our boat from a fellow who spent over 1.4 million to outfit the boat for world travel, only to have his plans derailed during the Great Recession due to business concerns. Now, we sail on his former dream boat without any difficulties 5-6 months of the year. Has nothing to do with the size of the boat.

[Rohan]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Another example: We purchased our boat from a fellow who spent over 1.4 million to outfit the boat for world travel, only to have his plans derailed during the Great Recession due to business concerns. Now, we sail on his former dream boat without any difficulties 5-6 months of the year. Has nothing to do with the size of the boat.

Sure it has nothing to do with the size of the boat? A much smaller boat would not have cost 1.4 million for him to outfit, and that guy might have been able to keep it through the recession. Affordability has a lot to do with how much you will sail.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Rohan

Sure it has nothing to do with the size of the boat? A much smaller boat would not have cost 1.4 million for him to outfit, and that guy might have been able to keep it through the recession. Affordability has a lot to do with how much you will sail.

Rohan,

Take a moment to re-read my complete post. I know it's difficult for most on CF to imagine, but to the two owners I referenced on my post, $2,000,000 is chump change. Sailing was just the latest diversion from their business interests and the responsibilities they feel towards their many employees. They quit cruising in order to keep their company afloat, so their employees could continue to make their mortgage payments. You see... they feel an obligation towards others. Both were and are still wealthy enough to have jut said "screw it... I quit" and continued to cruise and left their employees to fend for themselves, but that's not the type of person they are.

Having enough time to do everything is their problem... not money.

Each of them will come back to cruising, or whatever fancies their interests when the company's financials come back in line.

[Kenomac]

Rohan,

I'll give you and others another extreme example of what I'm referencing and why some sell their dream boats.

While walking the docks at STP shipyard last season in Palma, Mallorca, I came across an absolutely stunning 115ft sailing yacht. A boat comprised of the absolute best of everything, which had just been sold for a small fraction of it's original cost. According to you and others on CF, it would be assumed that the original owner over extended himself financially and could no longer afford the boat and/or crew.

Turns out the former owner was a cousin of the Prince of Brunei. The $30,000,000 million or so for a 115 footer was chump change.... walking around money. His interests had changed.

Things are not always as they appear. The STP shipyard docks are filled with boats just like it, owned by some of the worlds wealthiest individuals.

[zeehag]

If you are afraid of handling it solo
if you cannot control it by self
if you cannot dock it yourself
then it is too big.

[barnakiel]

Those of you who are into xx mile a day category (200 miles, 300 miles .... buhahaha miles, etc.): look not only what the design can plainly deliver (which is relative to sqrt of LWL and a difference between 45 and 50 IS marginal - before allowing being faster because we are bigger (resulting e.g. from more stable ride, etc. etc) ...

oufff - that was a long intro ;-)

So, xx miles dreamers guys and ladies : do look deeeep into how your selected design performs on the typical wind angles that you are going to sail. For many, many cruisers this means you want a boat that excels ddw and is a very good upwind ride. Everybody could sail fast on beam reach, it is ddw and upwind that tells a boy from a man.

10 kts of hull speed is good, 10 kts of vmg ddw is twice as good. Especially if the same deign can sail fast and comfortably upwind at below 45 degs TWA. Few will.

Who has ears can hear and the rest can keep on dreaming.

Love,
b.

[Flacky]

For us, we went looking at the 44'-47'ft range when we travelled to the Med. We were introduced to an American couple (Barb & Frank) sailing on an Island Packet 51 and had been cruising for many years.

Frank's single piece of advice - "Chris, buy the biggest you can afford, you won't regret it"

It worked for us

Cheers
Chris

[scuba0_1]

Yep we keep looking bigger but are settled on 41 to 44. We know what were want on it and that's deciding the size we could go bigger but don't see much of the return except I exspence. I mean how many rooms can you really sleep in at one time and how many places do you really need to sit. As a boat we walk on got bigger the living area stay the same it seems to just add more rooms and we don't need more rooms

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[rhubstuff]

I spent many days and sailed many miles with a couple who owned a 44 ft. schooner. The ONLY electrical device aboard was a battery-powered radio to get time signals. Even the engine was hand-cranked to start. All lamps and the stove were kerosene. This vessel sailed from the US, transatlantic and back, then through the Panama canal, through the south seas, and last I heard was in Australia or NZ. Point: You don't need a lot of gear. The case has been made by Dr. Stanley Paris, whose tenacity and courage I greatly admire, but whose boat IMHO is massively over-equipped, and which has failed twice to even make it out of the Atlantic Ocean. My take: Don't sail off soundings with stuff you can't either fix or get along without.

[Mirar]

Hard to refrain from chipping in here. I am about to launch my tinny, a 55' Chuck Paine style cruiser with a great pilot house, aft engine room and tough hull of 9mm/3/8 alloy plate. The whole build cost is way less than most new 35's when doing it myself. I could have gone bigger , could have gone smaller, but the 50 foot waterline is a nice round number. I know not everyone is a boat builder so will leave all that economic details aside. After decades of commercial fishing and shipping, I feel strongly that the longer the waterline the more comfortable the ride. I started with a company as el capitain on a little 55 foot freight boat, gradually moved up with their expansion to 150 foot w/L. and can definitely say, the bigger the better. I wasn't paying the fuel bills of course. With an azimuth thruster, I could easily dock and tie up the largest of their fleet by myself.
Mostly, I see this as a pointless thread, as everyone has their comfort limits, and if you are buying new, well , that is a shocker for sure. Go with what works for you and then plan ahead if it isn't what you hoped for.
The other point I would make is that most cruisers, regardless of size have all the same stuff aboard. The point has been made already on this thread, but it just reiterates the thinking that it doesn't need to be an exponential increase to go slightly bigger in w/l.
Incidentally, our new 55' has the same sail area as our old 48 footer with a 39' w/L
Greg

[brookiesailor]

My husband was being cranky last night and asked if I needed a dance floor and disco ball... It it best not to have these conversations when tuition is due...


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[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

It has more to do with the fact that many/most folks who buy yachts which cost over $2,000,000 have other interests, hobbies and business commitments that get in the way of sailing. Sailing is many times just "the flavor of the day" for them.

Well, perhaps not always...

One of my favorite clients over the years was a couple who went thru the typical progression, 38 to 42 to 52... The latter choice was made with consideration that he was scaling back his involvement in his business, turning more of the operation over to his sons, and would have far more time to spend aboard the boat, and more room aboard for friends and grandchildren to join them, etc...

Funny, but it didn't work out that way... True, they spent far more time aboard, but much less of it actually sailing, or going places... The schedules of their friends and family rarely seemed to coincide with their own, and they spent most of their time sitting in marina. The wife was intimidated by the boat's size, and even something as elemental as the difficulty of handling a 50 amp shore cord versus their lighter 30 amp cords on their previous boats annoyed the hell out of her...

After a few years, they downsized to a 42 footer... Smartest thing he ever did, they actually started sailing again... Didn't need me any more to run their boat south outside, and they re-discovered the delights of being able to run the ICW...

So, in their particular case, bigger was not necessarily better...

[Weyalan]

In my unqualified opinion, if the boat has the capacity to be sailed for long periods, comfortably, by the owners and, at a pinch, single-handed in the event that a partner is incapacitated, then it isn't too big. And "too big" is not a hard and fast rule. There are couples out there quite happily sailing 65' boats 2-up and there are couples out there for whom 40' is way too big...

Personally, because my experience with handling "big" boats short handed is limited, I'd be daunted by anything much bigger than what I have, but I am pretty comfortable that I'd be able to sail our boat single-handed for several days if necessary, if my S.O. was incapacitated. I can hoist any sail by hand, even raise the anchor by hand if necessary and am reasonably happy to bring the boat alongside by myself at a pinch. - these being the acid-tests of "handling" for me.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by brookiesailor

My husband was being cranky last night and asked if I needed a dance floor and disco ball... It it best not to have these conversations when tuition is due...


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As long as you have a pole (for poledancing) you don't need a dancefloor.