How big is too big for a first boat novice sailor? And my little dreams

[Paul L]

One of the advantages of the Hudson Force 50 is that it comes with its own training video: Captain Ron.

Be very doubtful of anyone who claims they invested $400k in a 125k boat. As mentioned above you would be venturing into a high maintenance boat that will require a lot of your time and probably a lot of your money as you get edgeecated on boats.
I think SteadyHands advice above is sound.

[JPA Cate]

justshane,

The one without the teak decks, if it was done properly, might be a good idea. Many, many teak decks get removed, because they had been screwed down, and water intrusion into the core, or the underlayment occurred. Just imagine sealing up on the order of 3,000 repaired spots, where rot occurred underneath. It is a huge project, and not many people re-install teak, if they got it off without breaking. It can be done, with glue and weights, but most people are really glad to be rid of the leaks.

Jim and I prefer aft cockpits to center cockpits, he just wrote the reasons in another thread today. Search on his posts by way of clicking on his avatar, and you'll find it.

If you persist in looking at such big boats, you could look at Petersen 44's, too. Again, beware of black iron tanks, and wildly varying layups.


Ann

[LongRange]

In June we started living aboard a Dufour 45'. Our reasons and plans are somewhat different, but I too am a novice when it comes to the practical aspects of handling and maintaining larger boats. I had been reading about sailing for 30 years and considered myself relatively knowledgeable regarding theory, but that did not help when it came time to maneuver a 12 ton object into a narrow marina berth in what seemed like 70 knots of wind (but was probably more like 7kn)

A few months of living aboard and performing minor repairs does not an expert make, so I won't attempt to offer advice, but I will list a few things I would be likely to do next time...

I would spend more time walking around marinas and asking (friendly) folks whether I can have a look at their boat because I'm considering buying something similar. Many are just itching to talk about the vessel, since they spend so much money and energy fixing it up, and they are likely to provide a balanced and experienced view.

I would interview potential surveyors and come to a detailed, written agreement about points to be checked. My preference would be for a mid-range surveyor who is keen to build a reputation, and is therefore not above getting into the less glamorous parts of the boat with a torch and a nose peg.

I would try to check the boat's systems myself, as much as possible, before paying for a survey. In retrospect it seems obvious, and the advice has been given countless times on this forum and in books, but it is all too easy to be rushed through by a seller who Is Very Busy Today, and by one's own time pressures. Whether the shower pump works may not seem like a deal breaker for a $150K purchase, but multiplied ten or twenty times to cover other systems on the vessel it becomes a significant issue.

I would insist on a hyper-detailed sales contract which specifies precise dates, the location and manner of handover, the condition of the boat and gear, and what penalties apply if one side or the other fails to adhere to their contractual obligations.

Having said that, it has been a very rewarding experience, and we have all learned a lot and enjoyed ourselves.

Best of luck with your boating

[Suijin]

You're in a difficult situation. You know nothing, comparatively speaking, yet want to buy a boat that is capable of circumnavigating and also meets list of other varied requirements.

You need some practical experience. Otherwise you risk buying the wrong boat, either from a maintenance/costs perspective or a "goodness of fit" perspective. I suggest that you volunteer as a crew member on a couple of passages with experiences skippers. A week or 10 days or more spent on a boat on passage will learn you something fierce, particularly if the captain is skilled and talkative. It will be an inexpensive but invaluable education.

You did not mention your mechanical aptitude and flexibility. Boats are little more than a collection of structures and systems that need constant maintenance. If you live aboard you can count on about 1 hour of maintenance per day, on average, sometimes more depending on the boat. That Hudson would clearly be more...just maintaining the woodwork alone would be a constant battle. And you need to be flexible...working on a boat requires you to get hands and arms and often your whole body into places and positions that most landlubbers would look at and go "Uh no, not gonna happen." Boat maintenance is called boat yoga for a reason.

I also want to emphasize the cost/complexity to length factor. When you add 25% to a boat's length, you basically double it's displacement, which in turn increases the forces at work and the strength and cost of of it's hardware. It will have more complex systems, which means more wiring, more hoses, more equipment, etc. A 40' boat is probably twice as expensive to maintain as a 30' boat, and a 50' boat double that of the 40'. I've known seriously experienced and competent sailors, with money to burn, who moved up to 50' only to go back down to 40' because the bigger boat was just too much to manage and maintain. And you've never even set foot on one.

As much as I hate to recommend a specific boat, as I think you really need to get some experience under your belt before you even start thinking about what boat to buy, I would take a look at an older Lagoon 380. Big platform for living on, s/o's child has own hull, relatively straightforward systems, good reputation.

[drruss]

Go for it! We were owners of a cruiser and realized when gasoline hit $6 a gallon that it was getting very expensive to play on the water. We decided to get a sailboat because wind is free haha (yes alcohol was involved). We've been boters our entire lives but not Sailors and had never sailed before. Our ultimate goal is to hit the big water and retire. Currently we are landlocked on a large lake learning all the tricks to sailing and the tricks to maintenance. So we went down to look at a 28-foot sailboat sitting right next to it was a 48-foot Tayana. Guess who bought a 48-foot Tayana for their first boat? We did! So now we have this great big boat and had never sailed before. Our good friends at the boat club (Captain Bob) and others started showing us the ropes. But many times as we left the marina my phone would ring with people saying what are you doing where are you going and we'd say we're going sailing and they would reply with "but you don't know how to sail". We always jokingly say our saill club is a drinking club with a sailing problem so my reply was if you guys can do it so can we. If your mechanically inclined you will be just fine yes there's a huge learning curve but you can do it ....go for it! Be prepared because it is not cheap! And they're right, parts for big boats cost a whole lot more money! We discovered that quickly when we tore up a 65 lewmar winch and bought parts to rebuild. And whoever said a boat is a hole in the water I which you pour money was absolutely correct but we love it.

[dkroar]

Check out this website: Marine Survey 101
Marine Survey 101, Do your own marine survey

This will help with what you should be looking for on an older sailboat. In addition to gaining knowledge, a competent surveyor/survey is always a must before buying.

[TrentePieds]

If you cringe at paying three grand a month in shore-side rent, just wait till the cost of maintaining a Hudson Force 50 in seamanlike shape hits you!

For a number of years I taught completely green lubbers to sail in a 27 ton Billy Garden Ketch not significantly different from the HF50. No reason you can't teach yourself to sail in one. Except this: You admit to being impulsive. Sailing a HF50 is NOT like driving a Ram 350. Impulsiveness ha NO place in ANY ship - not even a baby ship like a HF50!

I think - from the little we can know about you from your posts - that you are starting bass-ackwards. Your most fundamental consideration should not be what KIND of boat to buy, but what your PASSIVE income will bear!

Sit thee down and lay a REALISTIC expenditure budget based on your present PASSIVE income, and add to that any other future income that you can predict with reasonable certainty, such as rental income from decent shore-side property. Once your income numbers have been determined with some certainty, you can make your expenditure allocations bearing in mind that if you insist on comforts (water-maker, hot water showers, and all the other "condo stuff") your expenditures afloat are going to be a good deal greater than the cost of the same goodies ashore. And the "comforts" will STILL not be of the quality and utility they have ashore. And your frustration level will be commensurately higher.

Be aware that when you buy an old boat of this nature, what you buy is a possibly worn-out diesel that happens to be surrounded by a hull of possibly doubtful integrity. Particularly if the frozen snot - the hull material of choice - is contaminated with loads of teak adornments. The WG ketch I sailed had a 55HP Petter. Buying a 30 year old HF50 today you should be prepared to invest immediately the $50K purchase and installation cost of a brand new motivator. Unless you happen to be a marine diesel mechanic :-) We'll say nothing of the rigging. Beware of "improvements" made by previous owners.

So having rained on your parade, let me utter the famous words: "It's for your own good" :-)!

Suijin said some wise words. As he always does. Pay attention to him!

TrentePieds

[Meacenas]

Being in a somewhat similar situation, we have to put our 2 cents in. From your posts you do seem somewhat set on a large boat with a certain expensive yacht style. The questions that should be asked, in mho, have you looked at the future and the balance between what you can do yourself as far as maintenance and what you will have to pay for. Boat parts and maintenance are extremely expensive. What you pay for a part at autopart store will be multiplied 2 or 10x at a chandlers. We would like a large stylish boat, but realistically, we also know that we are not up to the workload ( nor do we want the expense of a largely cosmetic item) of the neverending, always never done, constant woodworking, so its fiberglass with bits of wood as accents. So if you are not a handy sort who can fix the wood, the mechanical, the fiberglass and all the other thousand and one bits, you will have to be prepared to pay and pay, ( and pay). That also lead up to the next item ( safety at sea) which is failure of something when you cannot pay, such as losing steering or some other very important item. Are you up to the task of cobbing up a makeshift work on a scale as large as you would like? Again, as much as would like the space of a 40+ foot boat, we are more realistic in being able to handle a large boat, ( now its 33-35' ) for safety sake. Then there are other items, docking and its associated costs, ( some marinas cannot handle a larger boat), the annual haul out and checklist,....the list for a big boat is...bigger, more expensive....We made a list of must haves, a list of wants and a list of no ways. When put up against our projected incomes, how much work we were willing to do on a regular basis, ( like sanding wood) and what we were really doing this for ( enjoy the world and relax), our priorities changed. No wood decks, no cored decks, speed is overrated, a well maintained diesel, a 3 burner stove, ( we cook a lot), with fridge, solar panels,....try this and forget the fancy yatchy look....

[LoudMusic]

I think it's less about size and more about complexity. You want to take on as few new responsibilities and skills at one time as you can limit it to. Then add more features and functions as you become comfortable with what you have.

[JOHNMARDALL]

If you need a 50 foot floating condo,with all modern conveniences and plenty of storage, and have no boating experience, I recommend that you look at trawlers, with thrusters, and not sailboats. The best starter sailboat is a dinghy, and the ideal first crusing sailboat that you can overnight on is around 27 feet. A fifty foot sailboat for a beginning sailor is absurd and would make you and your family unhappy, uncomfortable, and if you get caught in very bad weather at sea, dead.

Driving a sailboat is not an extension of driving a bus.
Good luck -live long and prosper

John Mardall
Vetus Maxwell Group

PS I''m a life long sailor.

[Scout 30]

Hello Everybody,
I just turned 16 & have never driven before but I'm about to learn & my dream is to be Nascar Driver. I'll need a car to get to my job a Burger King but since I plan to be a race car drive I want to buy a race car now.

The point is buy a boat that suits your needs now. It's difficult for the inexperienced to be realistic about how they will actually use their boat & buying the wrong boat is an expensive mistake. If you're looking for a floating condo buy a power boat. If you're looking for a floating condo that sails look at the smallest boats that you can live with & the newest you can afford.

Now watch this video of a successful cruise around the world in a 30' boat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5m061JZNYQ&t=39s

[Cheechako]

I would avoid going as large as 50 first boat. 35-42 better. Plenty of roomy boats in that range. As mentioned the maintenance is another thing as well.

[icemate]

Originally Posted by justshane

And by novice I mean I've been on a boat once or twice and I still giggle at poop deck.
Now that my extensive resume is out of the way here's what I'm looking at.
I'm in the market for a live aboard boat that I can circumnavigate around the world. I plan on living in it full time.
I'm in an expensive area right now and it's either I spend 30k on rent for the next 9 months or I invest into motor sail and live on that while I'm here and learn to sail in the mean time. I know, it's a big task going from a know nothing to trying to sail across the globe but I'm up for the challenge. I plan on leaving when the time is right.

So the size question, I'm 6'2 and I like a little space, especially if I'll be living on board with a S/O. I'm looking at a nice Hudson Force 50, it has the space and the style. From what I understand it has had extensive work done to it, in the 400k range, so it obviously wasn't always a gem, I've followed some of the work done on their blog. I've read a lot of the love/hate regarding the teaks and leaks, I would get a survey done before hand obviously but I'm wondering if this is TOO big in the experts opinions for a first time sailor? I'm looking at this like anything else, I don't like to buy on a budget just to upgrade later. I'd like to grow with this. It's 35 years old but I see much older boats out there still kicking it with the kids.
The boat is pretty much everything I want at a glance, just needs a water maker, some solar and a little interior refurbishing to make it perfect.
As for the large space, I have equipment that I need to move with me, mountain bikes, boards, scuba gear and about 2 pairs of pants and some flip flops, as well as a S.O and a son that I would love to take on trips in the future.

I've never sailed but I will take a few courses and spend the next 8 or 9 months working on my knowledge/skill as well as with friends who are avid sailors to help me learn what I need to.

Apparently you are single. I'm 6'3' and also have a bad back. Most important for me when I bought mine was head room. I looked for something in the 6'6" range and found a Nan-Tai 37HD Cutter Cruiser. This is a simular boat to the sister Tayana 37. If I had the money I would have liked to have bought a Hans Christian or a Tayana 40'er. Sometimes, to much boat is to much maintenance and I wanted to live aboard and enjoy sailing. I lived on mine for 6 years and sailed to Australia (mostly single handed) . Finding crew you enjoy is not the easiest thing to do. Rigging the boat for single handing is more important. Roller furlers, biggest winches you can fit, and a nice cockpit to relax. I would have like two refrigeration units, one for cooling and one for freezer, that way when frozen food is gone no need to use power you don't need. Monitor self steering was great once I learned how to use it. I did the hook and dingy for a short time in New Zealand and it's not great when raining or bringing groceries aboard. Think again about a slip first. Enjoy
it half as much as i did and you will never forget regret it.

[vciavarelli]

Just a thought, but have you considered rent a boat that size and spent a week or so on it to see how well you enjoyed it?

It would certainly give you some perspective on space, supplies, motion of the boat, handling, etc. You might even hire a captain to assist and get some good learning time in at the same time.

[Dave22q]

Assume your first boat will need an additional 25% for fix ups and upgrades. Assume in 2 years you can sell it for 75% of the original price. Will you have enough money for a bigger/better boat more suited to your needs including 25 to 50% of the price for surprises. If not, start smaller. Note, the smaller the boat, the easier to sell.