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Old 24-06-2020, 21:09   #1
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how long is the build process?

I'm curious what the differences in build time are between a high end boat like a HR or an Amel and a Beneteau or Hanse production boat... this came out of a question from my wife and i wasn't sure how to answer...

obviously a more substantial build is more involved and will therefore take more time... and the spec'd options on a higher end boat also may make for a longer build period, but beyond that i wasn't able to answer her

#husbandfail.

can anyone shed light?

Cheers,
- Justin
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Old 24-06-2020, 23:10   #2
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Re: how long is the build process?

2009 Beneteau 34 took three months from order to delivery to the boat yard.
2020 Island Packet 349 took almost 10 months from order to arriving at the boat yard.
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Old 24-06-2020, 23:22   #3
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Re: how long is the build process?

Hi, Mag3,

You could take a look at noelex's thread about the build of their Besteaver 49 (use the Google Custom Search). Iirc it was about 10 months, once all the pre-design decisions were made. And that was a custom build from inception to completion, in aluminum. Very exciting boat.

Our own boat, also a one-off, took the shipwright and his young wife 18 months to build, from western red cedar and glass and epoxy. We bought it after they had cruised it for 8 years. They had help to turn the boat right side up, and help with the fairing prior to painting. They probably were working ~60 hr. weeks.

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Old 24-06-2020, 23:58   #4
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Re: how long is the build process?

Beneteaus will benefit from better tooling and investment in mass production. They have made so many, they are able to make them faster.

When building a boat, there are countless small projects. The better and more smoothly you can get those projects to go, the faster the overall build. If you’ve done something once, you can make a lot of improvements to save time the next time. If you’ve done it 10x now you’re getting pretty good at it. Do it 100x and your processes are so good, you’ve found shortcuts to save time everywhere.

If you’ve never built a 50’ catamaran before, it can take a decade full time and does.

Basically, economies of scale, mass production and superior tooling as well as honed processes make the beneteau a much faster build. Not absence of quality.

The labor is the lion’s share of the cost of building any boat. The parts that make it up are not.
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Old 25-06-2020, 08:21   #5
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Re: how long is the build process?

10 months!? that seems incredibly long... thats the time from mold to commissioning?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Horizons View Post
2009 Beneteau 34 took three months from order to delivery to the boat yard.
2020 Island Packet 349 took almost 10 months from order to arriving at the boat yard.
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Old 25-06-2020, 08:25   #6
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Re: how long is the build process?

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10 months!? that seems incredibly long... thats the time from mold to commissioning?
It was from signing the agreement to commissioning. Mold to commissioning was about 6 months.
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Old 25-06-2020, 08:33   #7
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Re: how long is the build process?

I get economies of both scale and optimizations due to tuning with each turn of the crank...

I'm also not suggesting absence of quality per se. but i do think that to a point you get what you pay for. As a product designer myself, i have a strong appreciation for the intended purpose a product was designed for... it should be judged by those metrics. too many people put down production boats but i think they're fantastic for what they're designed for.

i generally think of three categories that impact time and costs:
  1. Construction method: some construction techniques take more time than others and are therefore more costly (and in some instances produce a better product though not always). Also -
  2. Materials choice: you could argue that this is a subset of the first one, but the choice of materials can dictate certain construction methods and certainly has an impact on cost.. veneer vs. solid hardwood for example...
  3. Options: all the add-ons take time, labor, and money in the raw parts... so boats that come off the line with very few options available that you have to have done by a third party post commissioning vs. not having at all vs. having built in from the go all have an impact..

for reference my "everything but the kitchen sink" fully loaded Amel 50 takes about 5.5 months from entering the mold to commissioning. My wife was curious how that time compared to a similarly sized production boat..

this is where i wasn't sure. My assumption is that the production boat would be faster, but i really don't know!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
Beneteaus will benefit from better tooling and investment in mass production. They have made so many, they are able to make them faster.

When building a boat, there are countless small projects. The better and more smoothly you can get those projects to go, the faster the overall build. If you’ve done something once, you can make a lot of improvements to save time the next time. If you’ve done it 10x now you’re getting pretty good at it. Do it 100x and your processes are so good, you’ve found shortcuts to save time everywhere.

If you’ve never built a 50’ catamaran before, it can take a decade full time and does.

Basically, economies of scale, mass production and superior tooling as well as honed processes make the beneteau a much faster build. Not absence of quality.

The labor is the lion’s share of the cost of building any boat. The parts that make it up are not.
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Old 25-06-2020, 08:55   #8
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Re: how long is the build process?

Our Outbound 52 took 10.5 months to build and because of the pandemic we took her by mid May. Signed the contract 01/19 arrived 03/20/20 and delivered 05/15/20
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Old 25-06-2020, 08:56   #9
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Re: how long is the build process?

Slocum and Pidgeon each took about a year. I imagine if they had owned power tools it might have been quicker.
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Old 25-06-2020, 09:16   #10
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Re: how long is the build process?

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10 months!? that seems incredibly long... thats the time from mold to commissioning?

10 months seems reasonable for anything as complicated as a yacht and built in low quantities. The workforce is small, and teams can't be specialized to perform just a single task as is done in mass production. Anyone who has worked in production environment will tell you that very often there are delays in obtaining materials and the whole process just has has to stop and wait until they are delivered. In small quantities, you can't get suppliers to give you priority. And some builders will cater to custom alterations of the interiors, which perhaps the larger builders are not willing to do, to keep their prices low.
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Old 25-06-2020, 09:19   #11
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Re: how long is the build process?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mag3 View Post
I'm curious what the differences in build time are between a high end boat like a HR or an Amel and a Beneteau or Hanse production boat... this came out of a question from my wife and i wasn't sure how to answer...

obviously a more substantial build is more involved and will therefore take more time... and the spec'd options on a higher end boat also may make for a longer build period, but beyond that i wasn't able to answer her

#husbandfail.

can anyone shed light?

Cheers,
- Justin
There are a lot of people who have posted blogs about their new boat under construction. SO the data you seek is out there.

A heavier and more substantial build is a small part, but the design of the boat itself is a big piece. An Amel will spend a lot more time in the mold since interior cabinetry and bulkheads are glassed to the hull while it is held in the precise shape of the mold. A bendy-toy with a drop-in liner is popped out as soon as the resin cures. So the intrinsic production rate of boats per mold per week will always be lower for Amel.

The availability of options is not necessarily a significant difference. Amel for example, is famous for NOT offering a long list of optional equipment. They prefer to work out how in install a particular air conditioner (for example) ONCE and work with that.

Lots of cosmetic details take TIME. Book matching custom cut veneers for the saloon bulkhead takes a lot more time than pulling a piece of plywood off the rack that already has the plastic laminate surface. This certainly doesn't affect the strength of the boat, but makes a huge difference in the appearance.

Finally, is the issue of production planning. Amel (up until this year!) has always boasted that they never delivered a boat even an hour later than promised. Either they have some kind of super powers to prevent delays from suppliers, or weather, or anything else, (for almost 50 years!) or they build a significant buffer in the the promised delivery date to be sure they can meet what they promise. That makes them look good on the back end, while adding to the apparent build time.

Just as a small example of what "build quality" means: We had a rigger making up new lower lifelines for our Amel Super Maramu. He carefully measured the distance from the attachment point on the bow pulpit to the one at the stern (there is no break or gate) on the starboard side of the boat. When he walked to the other side and started to set up his tape, I said, "They'll be the same." Now, I had never measured these before, but I had a pretty good idea from everything else I have seen on this boat. The rigger laughed at my naiveté, "They are NEVER the same!"

Starboard side: 51' 4 1/4"
Port side: 51' 4 1/8"

I guess he was right, they aren't the "same!"
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Old 25-06-2020, 09:27   #12
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Re: how long is the build process?

I think the OP (and myself) would be interested in a man-hour estimate as well. Beneteau may have a small army of workers in many stations on and off hull, where a smaller builder may only average a few people a day working on the boat. So while Beneteau pushes out a boat every few weeks and a small builder may take many months, that doesn't necessarily mean Beneteau put fewer hours into building the boat.
Anyone have man-hour estimates for building specific boats?
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Old 25-06-2020, 14:57   #13
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Re: how long is the build process?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Horizons View Post
2009 Beneteau 34 took three months from order to delivery to the boat yard.
2020 Island Packet 349 took almost 10 months from order to arriving at the boat yard.
Island Packet production has nowhere near the production efficiency of Beneteau.

Winches, masts, engines, sails, are all cost the same. "High quality" boatbuilders in the USA only produce 4 or so boats a year and fixed costs increase the price. They do however give you a prettier interior if you are more into that.
Believe it or not, efficiently produced boats cost by the pound.
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Old 25-06-2020, 16:48   #14
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Re: how long is the build process?

Quote:
Winches, masts, engines, sails, are all cost the same.
A common opinion, but one that ignores the fact that some builders use smaller winches, less sophisticated rigs, cheaper sail cloth, and so on down the line when compared with higher end yards.

This does not particularly affect build time, but surely affects relative costs.

Jim
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Old 25-06-2020, 17:32   #15
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Re: how long is the build process?

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
A common opinion, but one that ignores the fact that some builders use smaller winches, less sophisticated rigs, cheaper sail cloth, and so on down the line when compared with higher end yards.

This does not particularly affect build time, but surely affects relative costs.

Jim
Jim in North America the items you mention are options that the owner chooses.

Not an opinion.

As a boat builder in Costa Mesa, California, and a boat manufacturer in Largo/Clearwater Florida in the heydays of American boat building ,the 70s, and 80s, I cam assure you it is all about build time, efficiency and cash flow. Few had the needed millions in those days to succeed, sadly.
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