How much does a Shoal Draft Keel affect Blue water sailing?

[Lionelsole]

FWIW,
I have a 'shoal draft' Dufour 40E. This saves about 18". I probably have a couple of degrees more leeway than the racing version but, as I try to plan my passages to avoid prolonged beating, it's not an issue for me.
We have sailed about 25,000 miles over the last 3 years, including one Atlantic crossing and a season in the Bahamas. Here, there are passages that I can get through that I wouldn't manage with an extra foot of draft and anchorages where I can get half a mile closer to shore.
I am happy with my choice.

[adlib2]

Originally Posted by WingRyder

Greetings, I am new to all of this and tried to search the forum but couldn't find what I was looking for.

I will be purchasing my first boat next year, as a full-time liveaboard. I live in Florida and plan to spend quite a bit of time in the Caribbean. So naturally, a shallow draft keel is a benefit there. But when I retire in 12 years, could I comfortably cross the Atlantic in a Shallow Keel boat? Or would it be rough going in rough seas? I don't have any intentions of circumnavigation, But spending some time in the Med would be very appealing to me. So basically, I see myself spending 95% of my time in the Carib or cruising the Atlantic Coastline. 5% crossing the Atlantic once or twice.

EDIT: BTW, the boats in my target range are 10-15 years old, 37-40', most have winged keels (shoal draft versions). i.e. Beneteau, Jeanneau, Elan, Bavaria, etc...

Your collective thoughts and expertise is greatly appreciated.

I've owned an Irwin 43 shallow draft long keel vessel for 20 years and cruised extensively offshore. Spent 5 years in the Caribbean.
She points very well and; although, not a racers choice as she takes longer to turn It's the best choice for cruising.
I'm preparing my vessel for sale if you're interested? Fully loaded. Will be ready for you next year and you can help me with labour on repairs as I also live in Florida.

[WingRyder]

Originally Posted by jrbogie

whoa, even with all the new information at your disposal a shoal draft is far from a no brainer. perhaps I wasn't clear in my earlier post but it's the particular wing keel on my hunter 42 that works so well to weather. pick any old "no brainer" shoal draft keel at the risk of close hauled performance.

I guess what I meant by "no brainer" is for MY considerations. I am happy to give up a few degrees to the wind, without compromising blue water safety. I was mainly curious if a [winged] shoal keel is even advisable to take across the Atlantic. I realize that this is a noobie question. But my main concern is that, if I bought a winged keel boat (because 95% of all the sailing I'm planning, will be from Florida to the Caribbean and the Atlantic seaboard). Would it be advisable to even take such a boat across the pond. (Oh, the size I'm looking for is 37 - 40' cruiser).


JrBogie, I appreciate your response! I am new to all of this and have a million questions, and in most cases, I don't even yet know the proper questions to ask! Many members here, have crossed oceans, multiple continents, etc. There's are thousands of years of sailing experience on this forum. And that is what I LOVE about discussion forums, to be able to have a dialog with so many experienced folks, who don't mind a stupid, but honest question from time to time I'm glad people here feel a need to steer someone away from making a mistake, even if it means stepping on a few toes. I like that kind of honesty and that is what I will need over the next 18 months (boat purchase), and beyond!

[WingRyder]

Originally Posted by Lionelsole

FWIW,
I have a 'shoal draft' Dufour 40E. This saves about 18". I probably have a couple of degrees more leeway than the racing version but, as I try to plan my passages to avoid prolonged beating, it's not an issue for me.
We have sailed about 25,000 miles over the last 3 years, including one Atlantic crossing and a season in the Bahamas. Here, there are passages that I can get through that I wouldn't manage with an extra foot of draft and anchorages where I can get half a mile closer to shore.
I am happy with my choice.

Thanks, that tells me volumes, and is exactly what I wanted to know. Does your Dufour have a winged keel? I am assuming that it is because it's a recent design. I assume that a majority of 'production' boats in my size and price range have them now. Though, I could be wrong... probably am!

[WingRyder]

Originally Posted by adlib2

I've owned an Irwin 43 shallow draft long keel vessel for 20 years and cruised extensively offshore. Spent 5 years in the Caribbean.
She points very well and; although, not a racers choice as she takes longer to turn It's the best choice for cruising.
I'm preparing my vessel for sale if you're interested? Fully loaded. Will be ready for you next year and you can help me with labour on repairs as I also live in Florida.

I think that is a bit out of my size range, as I intend to live and sail solo, most of the time. I would however, be interest in assisting you working on in, when I'm available. Pro bono, for the experience. I'm familiar with GCS,FL. My mail service was there, when I lived in an RV for 5 years I live in Orlando, and would have some time available to help by late summer. PM me if interested.

[SV Miss Fe]

Go for the shoal draft. Deep draft sails a bit better but its not worth all the places you'll miss out on if you have a deep draft. 4-5ft is a great draft in general for the Bahamas. But I find myself sometimes wishing we drew even a little less than the 4 we draw to get into some of the really tricky spots.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by jrbogie

...I found my hunter passage 42 and man was I hooked. her 4.5 draft wing keel helps her out point almost every boat I come across these days. besides their lifting ability the wings contain a lot of the weight of the total ballast.

I owned a Hunter Legend 35.5 and had the same good experience. Shallow draft winged keel. Pointed high and went fast. Now I'm looking for my next boat to head south...Bahamas and the Carib...so you know its going to have shallow draft.

If you are doing the Atlantic Circuit, your crossings should be all downwind anyway.

[Matt Johnson]

We took our winged keel Sabre 34' across the Atlantic both ways without issue. There are far more important aspects to crossing than keel type.

Matt

[hamburking]

I'm thinking of something like this: https://miami.craigslist.org/pbc/boa...511644445.html

Shoal draft of 3 foot 7 inches. Swing the keel down for upwind performance.

[WingRyder]

Originally Posted by SV Miss Fe

Go for the shoal draft. Deep draft sails a bit better but its not worth all the places you'll miss out on if you have a deep draft. 4-5ft is a great draft in general for the Bahamas. But I find myself sometimes wishing we drew even a little less than the 4 we draw to get into some of the really tricky spots.

Thanks, I been looking at some Navonics charts on my iphone for fun & curiosity, it seems there are shallow areas, all over the caribbean (12-15') that stretch for miles. The middle shoal above Grand Bahama Island is a great example. Some of the 38-40' boats I've seen, the keels range from 8' down to 4' There are some islands where 8' draft would have you anchoring more than a mile away from shore! So, yea. I was definitely considering a shoal draft boat before, my only concern was blue water in foul weather... not that I plan to sail in bad weather, ... I don't think anyone willing does that, but you know, better than I, forecasts are just an educated guess... and are wrong half the time. lol.

[WingRyder]

Originally Posted by hamburking

If you are doing the Atlantic Circuit, your crossings should be all downwind anyway.

That's an excellent point, and one I hadn't considered.

[boatman61]

Unless you sail from the E Caribe to the Med and skip Hurricane Alley by skipping Bermuda and going straight to the Azores.. although to be honest I've yet to do a W to E crossing where it was downwind.. even from NC.
E to W is another matter.

[robert sailor]

There is no issue with shallow draft boats offshore in general terms. We are know that boats are not created equal so some are cheaper and not built as well and others not so much, doesn't really matter how deep the keel is.
For upwind sailing nothing beats deeper draft and no shallow draft boat will go upwind as well as a deep draft boat, there is no replacement for draft and that includes the marketing genius of wing keels.
For general cruising in the Atlantic, particularly the Caribbean shallow draft makes sense but if your careful and prepared to pass up certain spots you'll be fine with a deep draft boat.
In certain areas in the Caribbean shallow draft is a real advantage. If you were sailing the Pacific, draft is rarely a consideration. Find the right boat and make your choice on keel as a secondary decision.

[Jim Cate]

Odd that none of the gurus have brought this up, but a shoal draft MAY influence the AVS adversely, and this means that it is easier to capsize the boat in big seas (gross simplification of a complex issue). It is certainly possible to design a shoal draft boat with a big AVS, but I suspect that many mass producers simply fit a shorter keel with a bit more weight than in their standard draft models and know that very few of their customers will ever sail in conditions where it matters. Perhaps not a concern, but you were asking about such issues.

Jim

[daletournier]

I was waiting to see if Jim & Robert would voice an opinion, voices of experience.

I have a deep draft vessel (2.4m). I had concerns prior to buying which in hindsight seem mostly irrelevant.

My last vessel was 2m. I do think the not getting into places due to such drafts is overblown (I haven't sailed the Bahamas) . In the last 9 years of mostly full time cruising there's been very few places that I haven't been able to go to. There's times you have to work the tides a little more carefully or check out some place in advance with the dinghy BUT this isn't very often.

As mentioned the boat points better, it's also more stable generally including anchor . The wing keeled shallow draft version of mine requires 300kg more of lead to match the deeper draft.

I'm not saying deeper is better, there's for and against,s, but I think the deeper draft limitations arguments are exaggerated.

I would purchase the boat that is in the best condition given a choice between shallow or deeper draft, condition would be the deciding factor.

One other point, I purchased my boat at a significantly discounted price, although it was immaculate it wasn't selling as buyers on the east coast of Australia don't want deep draft although I've sailed that coast 4 times including the shallow areas such as the great sandy straights in deep draft vessels with no problems.

If I purchased a cat I would want dagger boards, as shallow as possible, in a mono I prefer deep draft, IMHO cats with dagger boards sail better, deep draft monos sail better.

Robert Perry: wings on a keel are band-aids for bad design