How much does a Shoal Draft Keel affect Blue water sailing?

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by WingRyder

OP here, Thanks to all! Great info. I am very new to this and have yet to take my ASA courses (have 101&103 scheduled for early May). I'm not much interested in racing my home, but I was concerned that there may be a major performance issue in bad weather, or high winds. My thought was that a shallow keel may make the boat heel more in high winds. If it is not THAT big of an issue, then I will naturally, start looking at shallow keel boats! I think that it is almost an imperative in the caribbean, where there are vast stretches of ocean that aren't much deeper than 6-12 feet.

I have been looking over this forum for a month or so, and doing some research elsewhere, but have never seen this issue explored or explained. Based on this thread, a shoal draft seems the logical choice for me, and since it wouldn't really effect an occasional Atlantic crossing, then a shoal draft seem like a no-brainer!

Thanks everyone, for clearing this up for me.

For starters, the Bahamas is not part of the Caribbean. We found virtually no parts of the Caribbean that shallow. For that matter that would apply to most of the world's oceans that we visited. In shallow bits like the Bahamas and parts of Florida and the ICW draft greater than 6' becomes a big issue.

[Cheechako]

My fully loaded deep draft cruisers went to windward like pigs. The 47 was 6.5 draft. The 38 was 6 draft. A loaded cruiser isn't going to be a witch to weather anyway. I'll take a somewhat shallow draft.
So there's that....

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by AiniA

For starters, the Bahamas is not part of the Caribbean. We found virtually no parts of the Caribbean that shallow. For that matter that would apply to most of the world's oceans that we visited. In shallow bits like the Bahamas and parts of Florida and the ICW draft greater than 6' becomes a big issue.

Yep, most of the "on the beaten path " eastern Caribe was deep enough for anything. The Bahamas... not so!

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

My fully loaded deep draft cruisers went to windward like pigs. The 47 was 6.5 draft. The 38 was 6 draft. A loaded cruiser isn't going to be a witch to weather anyway. I'll take a somewhat shallow draft.
So there's that....

If you have two identical boats except for the keels, loaded and sailed the same I think you'll find the deep draft will perform better than the shallow draft to wind.
In full cruising trim my 2.4m draft will sail 30° apparent depending on sea state.
I don't say this to defend my choice regarding the purchase of a deep draft, I just think the argument for shallow draft is over exaggerated, I just don't have many issues, very very rarely is it an issue. Now, if your talking about a dagger board cat or swing keel mono etc that's different, they can go places fixed keelers just can't even dream of.

[2big2small]

Originally Posted by WingRyder

That's an excellent point, and one I hadn't considered.

That’s not likely [that the Atlantic circuit would be all downwind]. Odds are you’ll be beating many days between Bermuda and the Azores. That’s the leg where people break their stays and spars. Between the Azores and Europe sailing close to the wind is also frequent enough that you should plan on it. That being said, having a shoal keel is no issue. I did it all with a 36’ 2001 Beneteau with a 5’3” wing keel.

The only thing I haven’t seen mentioned so far (and I haven't read past the post I’m quoting yet) is that upwind performance of shoal draft (wing) keels depends much on speed. The more you slow down under 5 knots, the wider your angle to the wind becomes. For deep keels this is far less of an issue. But that’s just FYI. Go for a shoal winged keel, or a twin keel, a tandem keel, or a retractable keel (ordered from deepest to shallowest) for what you plan to do with the boat.

Example of a tandem keel:
https://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/archives...andem-keel.jpg

A keel that somehow retracts or flips up can give you the deepest keel over all (when down) and the best upwind performance of all keel types. But it is an extra mechanical part that is so critical I don’t want it for world cruising, but if I would do island hopping like you seem to want to start with then it would definitely be my preference.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by daletournier

If you have two identical boats except for the keels, loaded and sailed the same I think you'll find the deep draft will perform better than the shallow draft to wind.
In full cruising trim my 2.4m draft will sail 30° apparent depending on sea state.
I don't say this to defend my choice regarding the purchase of a deep draft, I just think the argument for shallow draft is over exaggerated, I just don't have many issues, very very rarely is it an issue. Now, if your talking about a dagger board cat or swing keel mono etc that's different, they can go places fixed keelers just can't even dream of.

I imagine so, but neither will do it well. The 47 was 5" down on the waterline fully loaded.... and we thought we were being careful! It may have tacked through 100 degrees True in anything less than 15 knots true wind. Apparent looked a lot better.... but by GPS.. not so!

[overthehorizon]

Yes, I will agree my response about rocking shoal draft boats was rather broad and thanks for pointing that out. There is a lot for a prospective boat owner to consider which a seller may not disclose…like the mentioned stern slap. Some owners get used the noise of a cannon going off at their stern and may not see it as a problem. Ever see an anchored, true double ender, get hobby horsing from the wake of a passing ferry boat? All the other anchored boats will quickly settle down but the double ender seems to take forever to stop its rocking fore and aft. Miserable. It is all a matter of compromises and there is no perfect boat. So, of course, give it a good test sail before buying.

[Fbfisher]

Interesting thread, the focus on solo sailing has me thinking that keel depth is a lower priority than main sail configuration (classic vs in-mast furling), running rigging configuration to keep you in the cockpit at all times, and deploying and retrieving bow and stern anchors single-handed would be more significant issues to consider before getting to the choice of keel depth.

Cheers,

Fred

[DK2730]

BEST SHOAL KEEL boat available in NORTH AMERICA????
______________________________________________

I'm looking at a TANZER 7.5 for my first boat:
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/tanzer-75

This boat has crossed the Atlantic more than once, it's got 2.67' draft with the Shoal Keel version. (also comes in Fin style keel that is 4.5' draft.

Looking at $5500 CDN for a 25' boat that comes with it's own trailer and is launchable by trailer at shallow lakes, as well as capable of crossing oceans.

One could get through the PACIFIC this way on it:
CALIFORNIA to HAWAII,
HAWAII to COOK ISLANDS, then life's goal achieved!!!

This will be my first boat I'm buying and I'm new to sailing.
A FRESHWATER WATERMAKER would be essential to add.

What would I need to consider?
Is a Hinged Mast Step acceptable for bluewater sailing?
Wouldn't a TANZER 7.5 be more effective sailing through the Doldrums to the Cook Islands from Hawaii?

TANZER 7.5 seems choice to me, cause you can store it at home on it's own trailer, launch at lakes, then later cross an ocean slowly in one.

Thanks!

[Ericson38]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Nothing wrong with your thinking as if you are going upwind in reasonably strong winds offshore it's best to foot off and slow down a little so your riding over the waves rather than punching into them. A deep draft boat will have a much better vmg than a shallow draft in these conditions because when your sailing as high as you can in a shallow draft the deep keel is actually on a close reach. The shallow draft has even more leeway in these conditions so the difference between the boats is probably closer to 10 plus degrees. Yes I know gentlemen don't sail to windward but if your heading home from Hawaii you'll sail for around 5 days hard on the wind before being able to foot off. I've made that trip too many times to not know how one boat reacts compared to another. In the end everyone makes it, for some it's just easier. One other thing, shallow draft boats do their best sailing upwind as fast as they are able, this gives them their best vmg but when you slow them down as you would in the open ocean in stronger breezes they go upwind like a straw bale.
Right now we are sailing a shoal draft boat with a Scheel Keel, one of the better ones but my friend with exactly the same boat but a deep keel kills us going upwind offshore. Personally i prefer deep draft boats if you delight in sailing they just sail better but but we chose the boat by a different criteria and the keel just went with an otherwise very nice boat, we would do the same...the keel is secondary in my opinion.

We are in the same boat so to speak. Always had 6' 10 inch foot draft Ericson 38s on the west coast. A delight to sail to windard, even pulling a 13 foot boston whaler from Catalina back to Santa Barbara (120 miles to windward sometimes).

Now shipping our Taswell 49 to the west coast. It has a Scheel Keel (5 ft 8 inches draft). This makes (or breaks) the overall overland shipping height, so glad for that. The Taswell keel is LOOONG, and the skeg hung rudder is LARGE too, and I can get the boat down in height (15 ft) for the truck shipment to the West Coast from the Chesapeake Bay. But once on the west coast, I wish it would turn into a 7 foot keel, or even 8 ft, but it was only offered in Scheel, Shoal, and Deep. Deep was 7 ft. So only missing 1.4 feet or so, along a base of of keel length dimension of 11 ft. But that is still over 15 sq feet of keel. I'm actually concerned more with the swell and rolling in rocky west coast anchorages, so a rocker stopper is probably going to assist in that. The boat always pointed well in the bay, and in that crazy chop to boot. Can't wait for her to stretch her legs some.