Hunter, Catalina, Benneteau Debate

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The proof is in the eating of the Pudding not what “ you “ perceive as yiu own personal engineering standards , tru hulls in Europe in GRP are near universally done by means of threaded tru hulls and ball valves. These have been in use for decades without issue.

The rest is in fact engineering snobbery. Based on subjective personal opinion not backed by actual real world usage experience

It's not snobbery. It's a matter of proper engineering. I don't give a damn if people usually get away with a questionable design. It's a known bad engineering practice (especially as there's often poor thread engagement, as it's often an NPT ball valve on an NPS thru hull). So if buying a boat with thru hulls done that way, I'd expect a lower purchase price to account for replacing all of them properly.

[sailorboy1]

The one thing I will not accept about hull valves is .................... bonding wires connected to them. Nothing good is going to be achieved by connecting electrical stuff to non electrical stuff. On my first boat I found after a season that a 1.5" thru hull was only held in by caulking because it had corroded due to a bonding wire/bad ground combination.

[Rumrace]

Dumb question number 856 those huge turnbuckles in the salon wall. When your boat reaches 10 years old and requires new rigging do they remain or get adjusted.
I understand key spots have Kevlar layers in the layup. Is this one of the areas? My Dads boat in the 50’s had exterior visible chainplates. I miss my dual drum anchor windlass. I converted the pulpit to hold two anchors but no joy with the windlass. The boat isn’t designed to hold two anchors which sucks large.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

It's not snobbery. It's a matter of proper engineering. I don't give a damn if people usually get away with a questionable design. It's a known bad engineering practice (especially as there's often poor thread engagement, as it's often an NPT ball valve on an NPS thru hull). So if buying a boat with thru hulls done that way, I'd expect a lower purchase price to account for replacing all of them properly.

Who says it’s “ improper engineering “. These tru hulls are lasting the lifetime of the vessels without issue.

Again , there are simply no issues arising from this type of construction , ask any yard in Europe. It’s simply not an issue. No-one uses bolt through sea cocks here

Ps all threads here are either BS or metric nothing here is National pipe

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

The one thing I will not accept about hull valves is .................... bonding wires connected to them. Nothing good is going to be achieved by connecting electrical stuff to non electrical stuff. On my first boat I found after a season that a 1.5" thru hull was only held in by caulking because it had corroded due to a bonding wire/bad ground combination.

Correct. Mis - placed ABYC nonsense has done more damage to hull fittings in GRP hulls by bonding , it’s a recipe for trouble.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Who says it’s “ improper engineering “. These tru hulls are lasting the lifetime of the vessels without issue

The big reason is when you have a tapered thread ball valve screwed onto a straight thread thru hull. Those parts are not meant to connect like that. If you asked any company making those parts they'd likely tell you that it should never be done that way. However, it mostly works, so people often get away with it. But there's not much thread engagement, so the amount of impact or corrosion required to cause a failure is much, much lower compared to properly mated parts.

Just because people commonly get away with doing something does not make it good practice. By that logic, everyone should fuel cars with them running because it usually works fine. And many other similar situations.

Just because a boat manufacturer does something from the factory also doesn't make it good or acceptable. There are plenty of things you can find on boats of just about any brand that will leave you wondering "why the hell did they do that?" or "how did they not realize this would be a potential failure point later?" Even on things where doing it better would have taken hardly any extra cost or effort.

[Rumrace]

A hard grounding to a power boater means sell this sucker and fast. Don’t know why Sailboats are any different. Should be a CarFax thing on boats. Not hurricane damage repaired to manufactures but we left a little water in the balsa anyway.

I’ve watched dozens of groundings waving arms in hopes they’d spit out that stupid pill. I’ve lost 4 props to moving rocks with their own minds. Never touched a hull. The sailboat depth is 2 1/2 feet more than my ex boat so we don’t venture into.
Many moons ago some kid rear ended a beloved summer car. The idiot at the wrecking yard said he could straighten the frame and rebuild the car. I said no chance crush it.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

The big reason is when you have a tapered thread ball valve screwed onto a straight thread thru hull. Those parts are not meant to connect like that. If you asked any company making those parts they'd likely tell you that it should never be done that way. However, it mostly works, so people often get away with it. But there's not much thread engagement, so the amount of impact or corrosion required to cause a failure is much, much lower compared to properly mated parts.

Just because people commonly get away with doing something does not make it good practice. By that logic, everyone should fuel cars with them running because it usually works fine. And many other similar situations.

Just because a boat manufacturer does something from the factory also doesn't make it good or acceptable. There are plenty of things you can find on boats of just about any brand that will leave you wondering "why the hell did they do that?" or "how did they not realize this would be a potential failure point later?" Even on things where doing it better would have taken hardly any extra cost or effort.

Sorry , while I accept your words , the proof is in the eating , literally almost every yacht in Europe from HR down uses threaded tru hulls and ball valves , zillions of them are happily going about their business now for decades , yiu do not see yards habitually replacing such fittings.

The ISO standard , even though it’s been revised three times, is clear that this is acceptable engineering practice.

Flanged and bolted tru hulls ( and bonding ) are a throwback to wooden boats , there is simply no evidence these are needed on modern GRP hulls.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

A hard grounding to a power boater means sell this sucker and fast. Don’t know why Sailboats are any different. Should be a CarFax thing on boats. Not hurricane damage repaired to manufactures but we left a little water in the balsa anyway.

I’ve watched dozens of groundings waving arms in hopes they’d spit out that stupid pill. I’ve lost 4 props to moving rocks with their own minds. Never touched a hull. The sailboat depth is 2 1/2 feet more than my ex boat so we don’t venture into.
Many moons ago some kid rear ended a beloved summer car. The idiot at the wrecking yard said he could straighten the frame and rebuild the car. I said no chance crush it.

Any serious damage to a sailboat hull will result in a total loss insurance payout, because the cost of reinstatement to surveyed manufacturers standards is too great. That’s why debates over hull liners is misplaced. You will not be fixing that boat.

The insurance company will then sell it on to some fly by night who will patch it up and flog it cheap , so the world revolves.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Sorry , while I accept your words , the proof is in the eating , literally almost every yacht in Europe from HR down uses threaded tru hulls and ball valves , zillions of them are happily going about their business now for decades , yiu do not see yards habitually replacing such fittings.

The ISO standard , even though it’s been revised three times, is clear that this is acceptable engineering practice.

Flanged and bolted tru hulls ( and bonding ) are a throwback to wooden boats , there is simply no evidence these are needed on modern GRP hulls.

The ISO standard may allow it, but other standards do not. My impression of the European boat industry is that shiny, new, high performance, etc. matters far more than long-term durability.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

In Europe people in repair yards burst out laughing when you bring up the NA seacock bronze nonsense. The yards will point to literally hundreds of yachts sitting in the water all year round plugged into the mains. You simply don’t see seacocks being replaced

As I said mine were replaced ( the yard thought the owner was crazy ) and two were cut open and tested , pronounced fine after 16 years

Like I said one or two “ scare “ stories or appalling ABYC bonding practice , simply don’t translate into damming a whole family of boats.

And some Europeans with European boats are changing out their skin fittings to flanged seacocks. Whatever you're comfortable with.
https://youtu.be/Qljg6Mx75Rg

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

The ISO standard may allow it, but other standards do not. My impression of the European boat industry is that shiny, new, high performance, etc. matters far more than long-term durability.

Your impression is wrong as boats from European builders are long lived in general

In Europe ISO standards are legally binding no other jurisdiction has legally binding build standards.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Joli

And some Europeans with European boats are changing out their skin fittings to flanged seacocks. Whatever you're comfortable with.

https://youtu.be/Qljg6Mx75Rg

I’ve never seen it. I’m sure their are a few crazies but no builder is doing so. There’s zero justification.

You tube will always throw up a few loonies in any category. There are just that , loonies.

[Rumrace]

Century Boats USA 1929 on their 3rd owner moved states
Beneteau well over 100 years old and moved 4 US boat brand production to Poland to avoid trade sanctions against the US. Say goodbye to 4Winns Scarab Formula and Glastron. They make better boats in Poland anyway.
Hunter Marlow launch 5 new boats in 3 years then screwed their dealers. Jeanneau has 2 new boats in Sail 380 and 60. The 380 is an update copied by many.
Catalina took their most recent design changes off Europe’s finesse.
I can see how waddling around would get annoying in a patched up good old solid boat by a darn French witch passing in double digits. Tabanac anyway. Let’s make up some tales.
Would the new hunters have had 2 wheels running chines without Jeanneau Swan and Beneteau pioneering the hulls. Beneteau swung a single Wheel Jeanneau 2. Came right off the race circuits to fast cruisers.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Your impression is wrong as boats from European builders are long lived in general

In Europe ISO standards are legally binding no other jurisdiction has legally binding build standards.

The ISO standards were developed by the European builders to protect them from competition, not to protect the consumers. They allow Brass thru hull fittings. Their CE certifications are defined by what the builders can easily produce, not what is suited to go across oceans or bounce off the occasional rock.