Hunter, Catalina, Benneteau Debate

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Happ

I guess you really don’t understand what a forum is. It is opinions by a lot of people. Some are ignorant of facts and others want to justify their own decisions. Others are really knowledgeable and will give you facts. Here is the best way I know to answer your question. Production boats are exactly that. They are built for the largest part of the market. Can they cross oceans? Yes given the right route and weather. If you are making a 30 day crossing you need to either put up with an uncomfortable ride in a production boat (due to the design and construction) or the less luxurious often slower boat that is more sea kindly (nicer ride).

For instance I am currently looking for a boat to cruise from the Mid Atlantic north as far as Newfoundland, east to Bermuda and South to the Florida Keys and the Bahamas. Could I do it in a Beneteau, Jeaneau, etc. Yes. Will I? Probably not. The ride alone would make it uncomfortable for me. I will be within a short ride to shore for 90% of the cruise. So I can make a port and ride out some bad weather. Crossing an ocean you can’t duck in. That’s why I’m not a fan of production boats for my purpose.

I hope this helped.

A bigger Jenny or Benny will plough through most North Atlantic stuff. You’ll get a bigger one for the same money a smaller more boutique brand will cost.

Nothing beats size.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

A bigger Jenny or Benny will plough through most North Atlantic stuff. You’ll get a bigger one for the same money a smaller more boutique brand will cost.

Nothing beats size.

Like all generalities, this is not always true either.

The hull shape of many beneteaus is designed for speed which isn’t a bad thing, however, with that criteria comes flatter hull shape forward of the keel and therefore prone to slamming. Not all are so designed but most are. For that reason alone, those hulls are not the most enjoyable to sail long distances regardless of LWL. Fine for near shore though. It’s all about the target market.

People have crossed oceans in all type/brand of boats which makes that qualifier irrelevant.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Like all generalities, this is not always true either.

The hull shape of many beneteaus is designed for speed which isn’t a bad thing, however, with that criteria comes flatter hull shape forward of the keel and therefore prone to slamming. Not all are so designed but most are. For that reason alone, those hulls are not the most enjoyable to sail long distances regardless of LWL. Fine for near shore though. It’s all about the target market.

People have crossed oceans in all type/brand of boats which makes that qualifier irrelevant.

I crossed in them. I did not find them uncomfortable.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I crossed in them. I did not find them uncomfortable.

It's all relative. Different people are bothered by different motions. And the slamming from the shallow, flat forward sections doesn't show up in all conditions anyway. The more you like to sail upwind, the more of an issue it becomes. And that's not a brand or build quality issue, just an issue of hull shape.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I crossed in them. I did not find them uncomfortable.

As I said, people have made crossings in almost every type and size boat imaginable. It depends entirely on the person and the forward hull shape.

[Rod Headlee]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Where shall I start.

My Beneteau will sail circles around both Hunter and Catalina of equal size.

It sails extremely well under auto-pilot.

To be sure, they are mass produced and prefabricated, but hence you can get them at a good price. Keel draft can vary according to your needs.

The interior is bright and airy and has oodles of space.

The walk-thru' transom is a dream.

Cockpit is massive.

I will grant you that the shallow bilge is a pita, but that is the price you pay for speed.
My only other beef is that the lifelines are too low.

The Bennie is quite low to the water, hence at anchor it stays put and doesn't try to dance the tango.

Appearance-wise, the Bennie wins hands down.

I can go and on, but gave both Hunter and Catalina a looksee, before settling on the Bennie.

For the money, imo, there is none better.

I'm pretty sure you're not including the S&S designed C-38 in that statement .

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

It's all relative. Different people are bothered by different motions. And the slamming from the shallow, flat forward sections doesn't show up in all conditions anyway. The more you like to sail upwind, the more of an issue it becomes. And that's not a brand or build quality issue, just an issue of hull shape.

Slamming is quite contained on bigger canoe form hulls. The greater mass dampens the movement. Slowing the boat a little can greatly help too.

Secondly few people do long passages hard on the wind for days on end.

Hence I don’t think the criticism is warranted.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Hence I don’t think the criticism is warranted.

It’s not really criticism as it is simply describing the consequence of hulls designed with a flat forward shape for speed.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

It’s not really criticism as it is simply describing the consequence of hulls designed with a flat forward shape for speed.

What I meant was with management you don’t get a lot of slamming anyway

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Slamming is quite contained on bigger canoe form hulls. The greater mass dampens the movement. Slowing the boat a little can greatly help too.

Secondly few people do long passages hard on the wind for days on end.

Hence I don’t think the criticism is warranted.

As you said, people generally plan long passages to avoid beating to windward. I'd almost say the flat bow slamming problem is worse for coastal cruising, as there are more times you either want or need to sail upwind. And certain wave conditions will make it worse than others. Up here on the Great Lakes I know a few people with boats of this type that love the boat and find it plenty capable when sailing, but hate how badly the boat slams on some headings once the seas exceed 3 - 4 feet (we get rather steep, close together waves here). And even if the crew can tolerate the slamming, letting a boat slam too hard for too long is a great way to start breaking things on board.


Of course a larger boat rides better, but that's not a magic bullet. And sometimes the wave height / spacing is just wrong for the boat you're on and going larger or smaller (or to a significantly different hull shape) would make things better. Knowing that, the larger boat may have an equally bad time in some conditions, just not the same conditions as the smaller boat.

Basically, it's a tradeoff to get a boat that can have a fine bow without steering too badly in following seas (as there's less bow to dig in with the shallow, flat forefoot). And to get a boat that's a little faster and less draggy off the wind in exchange for worse performance to windward.


But that hull form complaint isn't a hit against Beneteau, per se. They're far from the only builder that's gone that direction. Many of the later Hunters have a similar shape, as do some of the more expensive boats.

Personally, from the boats I've been on and nosed around, the only things that really jump out at me about Beneteau / Jenneau construction that really bothers me is the lack of a proper keel stub and the resulting lack of a proper bilge. Well, and the placement of a huge (heavy) water tank all the way forward, but they're far from the only builder guilty of that. Beneteau gets a big thumbs up for using a deeper rudder on the deep keel boats though, as some of the other budget builders don't and use the same shorter, lower aspect rudder with either keel option.

Through the mid to late 2000s, I found Hunter and Beneteau seem to have taken a pretty similar direction in many ways. The hull shapes are fairly similar, for example (the Beneteaus look a little flatter, but not much). But there are still differences, and honestly, in many of the differences I'd prefer Hunter's solution. The Beneteaus are better looking by far and they're lighter boats, so they should sail a little better. But the Hunters carry more ballast, have a proper keel stub, and tend to make up for the extra weight with a significantly bigger rig. Our marina has a Jeanneau 36i and a Hunter 36-2 (I think they're a year apart in build) docked next to each other. The rig on the Hunter absolutely dwarfs the rig on the Jeanneau, but the Hunter is also a heavier boat (and has a much more bulky, ungainly appearance).

[Rumrace]

If you mean a slap on the underside of the hull it’s never happened on my Jeanneau.
This thread reminds me of a religious debate where people repeat rumours on things they don’t know.
The OP was a total rant. Someone hurt his ego likely by one of these rumours. He will switch brands and be equally obsessed with it.
But by all means get it off your chest. The guy at the top gets the most repeated rumours.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

What I meant was with management you don’t get a lot of slamming anyway

Not sure why we are debating this as you herein imply the hull shape is problematic being it requires “management” to avoid slamming. A proper hull shape should accommodate going to windward.

That’s not a criticism of B but simply an observation.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

If you mean a slap on the underside of the hull it’s never happened on my Jeanneau.
This thread reminds me of a religious debate where people repeat rumours on things they don’t know.
The OP was a total rant. Someone hurt his ego likely by one of these rumours. He will switch brands and be equally obsessed with it.
But by all means get it off your chest. The guy at the top gets the most repeated rumours.

Owned two Bene's, its not a rumour just something one adapts to or.. sells the boat.

[El Pinguino]

Having done a bit of oceanic windward work in my boat - stuff like Sunda Strait towards Fremantle across the SE Trades - 'slamming' is definitely a thing in boats with a flat forefoot.
Not constant but you will purr along happily for 10 or 15 minutes or longer then the wave train will be 'just so' and 'crack!' - and a few more of my fillings come loose.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Not sure why we are debating this as you herein imply the hull shape is problematic being it requires “management” to avoid slamming. A proper hull shape should accommodate going to windward.

That’s not a criticism of B but simply an observation.

This "slamming" problem is exaggerated and can be reduced by cracking off a little or slowing down. Both techniques are automatically employed by deeper hulls such as full keel models. They don't point well or go as fast to windward. Hence, less opportunity to slam.

Generally the flat portion of a hull, which could "slam", is between the knuckle of the bow and the front of the keel. Often just a small portion of that area. You have to get that part of the boat well out of the water then have it drop onto the next wave for it to slam. That is fairly extreme. Normally slamming is when the sides of the hull forward impact on the wave (you're heeled over when sailing to windward, right?) not the absolute bottom. Motoring to windward is when boats slam the worst. It's also when they slow down after hitting a few waves directly on the bow.

Our boat has an unusually flat bottom forward, much more than the "U" shaped sections of a Beneteau or Hunter or almost any other production boat. Yet we don't slam going to windward unless we push the boat into bigger waves. And then it is the sides of the bow which impact, not the bottom. All boats have flattish sections on the sides of the hull forward.

Three years ago we sailed across the Sea of Cortez, 350 miles, to windward, in a breeze. The Sea of Cortez can have short period waves like I imagine are in the med. As long as the wind was below 18kts true our sailing was beautiful: smooth and fast. But when the wind got over 18 (over 24kts apparent) we began to experience slamming, about once every 10-20 seconds. We hated it. We could avoid it by slowing down slightly and cracking off, but we endured it because we were anxious to make a quick crossing. Several hours later the wind and waves dropped off and the bad stuff was over, but it was always in our control. With a heavier, full keel boat, we'd never have the problem because it is automatically slowed down and cracked off.

By the way, our 43' boat weighs 18,000 lbs. Not exactly light or heavy.

Photo: Flat bottom boat, going to windward, not slamming. BTW, notice the nice headsail shape? Not a partially rolled sail for a 2.5 day beat to windward but a well set small jib (and no hanks).