Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

[RTB]

Originally Posted by ryon

What is the thinking on this? When you double a line out and back you allow for both legs to take an equal strain. But this? Not only is there no strain equalization between the legs, there is a central cow hitch that can be worried from side-to-side.

Hey ryon, I'm not following exactly what you mean. I guess , the idea is to have extra lines attached to the mooring in case one line, or piece of deck hardware fails. We're always on our boat since it is our home, so I'm going to know if something breaks and take immediate action. It's different for a boat stored on a mooring, I guess.

I see in the link above Recommended Mooring Tie Up for Storms it is different. Their instructions say -

"Picking Up a Mooring
• From the bow of the boat, pick up the wand.
• Pull in the small diameter line attached to the wand until a larger diameter loop in the
mooring line (bow hawser) appears.
• Reach under your lifelines (if any) and attach the loop to the bow cleat or other secure
deck fitting."

The only place I've seen that was on the west coast of Florida, at Ft Meyers Beach. Everywhere else has been like the one I showed before, even the Bahamas.



Ralph

[neilpride]

Lol, wait a moment, in the video they claim the deck is cored with PLYWOOD blocks , in the cleat área to, so the whole deck is Plywood cored , min 5,40..

[KnuckleDragger]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Lol, wait a moment, in the video they claim the deck is cored with PLYWOOD blocks , in the cleat área to, so the whole deck is Plywood cored , min 5,40..

Look again! And pay attention...

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by KnuckleDragger

Look again! And pay attention...

Enlight me, from what i see they core the deck with Plywood blocks ...

[OldFrog75]

Originally Posted by KnuckleDragger

Was the owner on the boat at the time?
Don't remember if this has been stated.

Don't know for a fact but I heard from a friend today they had gone ashore. I believe this all happened at night so I don't know if they were planning to stay on board for the night but left due to the weather or had no intention of staying on board and had been ashore at a hotel for some time.

[KnuckleDragger]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Enlight me, from what i see they core the deck with Plywood blocks ...

Yes, that's true. Plus backing plates at hardware attachment points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmRofXY5O-I

At 6:00.

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by OldFrog75

Given the mooring system in Avalon, once you realized waves/weather were coming, would it make sense to remove the pendant loop from the single bow cleat, run a dock line through the pendant loop, and cleat hitch on both bow cleats thereby creating a bridle of sorts? Then take up any additional slack with the stern pendant - or would the strength of a dockline be inadequate for the load with 6-8 foot waves?

I'm not familiar with the moorings in Avalon, and I generally avoid the use of moorings, anyway... But if I ever was to lie to a mooring for a big blow, here's what I'd do...

I think anyone who might ever find themselves relying on a mooring should be carrying their own dedicated mooring pendant. I really like the ones from Yale Ropes, their Polydyne Maxi-Moor II. I actually use one of these in 1/2" for my anchor snubber...





I also carry 2 others in 5/8" to be used as a bridle for a series drogue... But, if I ever were to consider lying to a mooring for a big blow, that pair would be put into service as a mooring bridle...

If you have any potential chafe issues on your foredeck, you'd want to consider the addition of a dyneema strop, such as the Cyclone Mooring Pendant from NE Ropes...





Better yet, with this rope being so easy to splice, simply make up your own...

Of course, with dyneema offering no stretch, this solution should only be considered in conjunction with a more elastic pennant such as the Maxi-Moor...

Finally, few out there know more about lying to moorings than Maine Sail... If he disagrees with anything I've said, listen to him, instead...

:-)

[ryon]

Originally Posted by RTB

Hey ryon, I'm not following exactly what you mean. I guess , the idea is to have extra lines attached to the mooring in case one line, or piece of deck hardware fails. We're always on our boat since it is our home, so I'm going to know if something breaks and take immediate action. It's different for a boat stored on a mooring, I guess. ...

Hi RTB. I'm all for safety and security, and I'm not picking on you or the people who came up with this mooring harness, but the arrangement I see in your post #387 worries me.

My first comment was at post #402, where I hoped I wasn't catching Hunter cleatwasheritis. I thought about it a little more, and made a second post at #412. I hoped that it would clarify my reservations. Apparently it didn't.

My point is that this entire harness is no better than one line, led out to the mooring eye. Let me know where I'm not being clear, and I'll try to answer.



I

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

I'm not familiar with the moorings in Avalon, and I generally avoid the use of moorings, anyway... But if I ever was to lie to a mooring for a big blow, here's what I'd do...

I think anyone who might ever find themselves relying on a mooring should be carrying their own dedicated mooring pendant. I really like the ones from Yale Ropes, their Polydyne Maxi-Moor II. I actually use one of these in 1/2" for my anchor snubber...





I also carry 2 others in 5/8" to be used as a bridle for a series drogue... But, if I ever were to consider lying to a mooring for a big blow, that pair would be put into service as a mooring bridle...

If you have any potential chafe issues on your foredeck, you'd want to consider the addition of a dyneema strop, such as the Cyclone Mooring Pendant from NE Ropes...





Better yet, with this rope being so easy to splice, simply make up your own...

Of course, with dyneema offering no stretch, this solution should only be considered in conjunction with a more elastic pennant such as the Maxi-Moor...

Finally, few out there know more about lying to moorings than Maine Sail... If he disagrees with anything I've said, listen to him, instead...

:-)

Wow. Great product recommendation. Ordered.

Thanks Jon.

[RTB]

Originally Posted by ryon

My point is that this entire harness is no better than one line, led out to the mooring eye. Let me know where I'm not being clear, and I'll try to answer.

Does this help?

How to Tie Up to a Mooring Ball

For a storm, just double up with 2 more lines. And do watch your anchor. I tie mine up to the bow pulpit to clear the lines.

Ralph

[ryon]

Originally Posted by RTB

Does this help?

How to Tie Up to a Mooring Ball

For a storm, just double up with 2 more lines. And do watch your anchor. I tie mine up to the bow pulpit to clear the lines.

Ralph

Yes. This seems quite safe, and illustrates what I tried to say in my comments. But note that this is NOT the questionable harness configuration which I caution against shown in your earlier post. My warning against that arrangement still stands.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

A couple of pics of the bow cleat on the 460... I'll cut the Hunter owners some slack, and allow that this does not likely represent how docklines are typically fixed to their cleats...

:-))








Two things catch my eye...

Probably due to the conversion of much of the foredeck into a boxtop for the anchor locker, those cleats are mounted considerably further aft than is 'normal'... Depending on how the boat might have been swinging, if the forces of wind and wave became more broadside, the leverage on those cleats might only have been increased than if they had been located closer to the stem...

Second, hard to tell for certain, but the surface upon which the cleat is mounted does not necessarily appear to be integral with the structure of the deck itself. Rather, it seems it might be an arrangement closer to that of the wrecked Passage 420 pictured earlier, where the cleat is perched atop a hollow, bulbous 'toerail', for want of a better description... But being that it's mounted on a flat cutout in that rail, one could only assume there's a solid structure underneath... However, there certainly isn't much room for a backing plate of the size that might be very effective in distributing the load to much of an extent to the surrounding deck itself...

Good news is, at least it's a 4 hole cleat... :-)

You're being way too hard on the Hunter, maybe even close to "Hunter bashing." I'll post a picture of the mooring cleat on our 53ft boat so that you can see for yourself. Smackdaddy is right, the only difference between a Hunter 460 and a heavier "BW" as he calls them.... is the quality of the cushions and window dressing... jeez, you can hardly tell the difference... it's like the same thing.... Dude.

Ken

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Exile

This explains the oft-cited quote about sailing not being a good pursuit if you embarrass easily. I've always felt it required a big dose of humility at any level, but especially for the inexperienced.

He, he ,he - have to laugh at this since it is a truism. Every time I begin to get a bit cocky thinking I know how to sail, something happens to teach me the meaning of the word humility (sigh).

By the way - in the discussion re Bluewatercruising/extended voyaging, it is my humble opinion that cruising the coast of the US or going to the bahamas or cruising around the carribean are not "Bluewater Cruising". These trips are rarely more than 24 or 48 hours.

As I noted noted in my earlier post - to me (IMHO) Bluewater cruising means crossing oceans (passagemaking). So Just as a trip from Copenhagen to Lisbon is coastal cruising (albeit the Biscay Bay makes this an interesting and at times entertaining sail) so is a trip from Florida down through the islands of the carribean coastal cruising.

You noted that a number of boats are lost every year practicing this type of cruising and I agree. More boats are lost near the coast than out at sea. Coastal crusiing is fraught with dangers, reefs, changing wave periods and scale, changing weather due to water/land masses, and finally one of the biggest dangers - other boaters who are not proficient boaters.

A couple of years ago, a danish family RTW'ed. Being extremely prudent sailors and having 2 smaller children on board - they were very weather conscious. As a result the heaviest weather they experienced on the entire trip was 30 knot winds, which most of us would not consider threatening. Most, if not all, plastic fantastic boats will sail this type of weather with impunity.

I believe I'm quoting Boatie correctly "Crossing oceans is a doodle - sailing near the coasts is dangerous" (sorry if I've not quoted it exactly boatie)

[Exile]

Originally Posted by carstenb

He, he ,he - have to laugh at this since it is a truism. Every time I begin to get a bit cocky thinking I know how to sail, something happens to teach me the meaning of the word humility (sigh).

By the way - in the discussion re Bluewatercruising/extended voyaging, it is my humble opinion that cruising the coast of the US or going to the bahamas or cruising around the carribean are not "Bluewater Cruising". These trips are rarely more than 24 or 48 hours.

As I noted noted in my earlier post - to me (IMHO) Bluewater cruising means crossing oceans (passagemaking). So Just as a trip from Copenhagen to Lisbon is coastal cruising (albeit the Biscay Bay makes this an interesting and at times entertaining sail) so is a trip from Florida down through the islands of the carribean coastal cruising.

You noted that a number of boats are lost every year practicing this type of cruising and I agree. More boats are lost near the coast than out at sea. Coastal crusiing is fraught with dangers, reefs, changing wave periods and scale, changing weather due to water/land masses, and finally one of the biggest dangers - other boaters who are not proficient boaters.

A couple of years ago, a danish family RTW'ed. Being extremely prudent sailors and having 2 smaller children on board - they were very weather conscious. As a result the heaviest weather they experienced on the entire trip was 30 knot winds, which most of us would not consider threatening. Most, if not all, plastic fantastic boats will sail this type of weather with impunity.

I believe I'm quoting Boatie correctly "Crossing oceans is a doodle - sailing near the coasts is dangerous" (sorry if I've not quoted it exactly boatie)

Points well taken. It's fair to say I've mostly been a coastal sailor thus far, and am only able to start letting my guard down when I'm well out of sight of land and haven't come into port for a couple of days. For the inexperienced, the problem is ignorance; for the experienced its complacency I suppose. But throw in some arrogance and it will sooner or later probably spell trouble.

I've also read tales from very experienced & careful cruisers of success avoiding heavy weather, citing only a few times over decades that they were really caught out. They're always prepared for the worst, of course, but managed to generally avoid it. Good bet that neither complacency nor arrogance are part of their personality make-up.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Exile

Points well taken. It's fair to say I've mostly been a coastal sailor thus far, and am only able to start letting my guard down when I'm well out of sight of land and haven't come into port for a couple of days. For the inexperienced, the problem is ignorance; for the experienced its complacency I suppose. But throw in some arrogance and it will sooner or later probably spell trouble.

I've also read tales from very experienced & careful cruisers of success avoiding heavy weather, citing only a few times over decades that they were really caught out. They're always prepared for the worst, of course, but managed to generally avoid it. Good bet that neither complacency nor arrogance are part of their personality make-up.

Complacency is the seasoned sailors worst enemy.

With todays availibility of weather reports and grib files on an hourly (or more often basis), there really shouldn't be any reason to get caught out completely. Most really heavy weather systems will a 2-3 day warning window and if you're careful you can turn tail and run, getting out of its way.

Which is not to say you can't get surprised, but assuming you've kept the boat ready for sea and are not flying unreasonable amounts of sail - the chances are you'll get through it without any major catastrophes (your(my) sense of smugness over your(my) skills as the exception)