I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

[OldPelican]

My MS Paint, cut and paste, "artist" rendition

The mast will be raked forward a trifle so gravity can assist in holding the sail out. whaddya think?

[Khagan1227]

Looks like a piece of "junk" to me.. (pun intended)

[skipmac]

Personally I've never been a fan of non-standard rigs except for some very specific situations. My thoughts are that there is a reason why 99% of the boats have a Bermuda rig and going to gaffs and junk rigs, square rigs and such you will almost always give up a good deal of something, whether it's overall performance, close hauled performance, ease of handling, cost, weight, something.

However, the bottom line is boating isn't only about efficiency and performance, it's about what you want. Unless you're in the charter business or hauling copra from some tiny South Sea Island, sailing is about what makes you happy and what you enjoy.

If you like a junk rig it's an interesting option and does offer some advantages (and disadvantages) over a sloop rig. At least in my case, I would want a naval architect to check on the details so I don't end up with a boat that's horribly unstable, has huge weather helm or something else unintended.

[Vasco]

How're you going to step that mast?

[denverd0n]

Well, you asked, so...

I think that unless you are a naval architect--and understand all of the engineering principles related to center of effort, center of balance, and so on--then you are asking to spend a whole lot of money to get nothing but a whole lot of disappointment.

[Richard5]

Looks like a tabernacle step to me. Is the boat designed for that? Even if so, will it support the loads of a junk rig? I'd heard the junk is a very effective sail plan which I translate into increased loads on the mast and step.

[Richard5]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Personally I've never been a fan of non-standard rigs except for some very specific situations. My thoughts are that there is a reason why 99% of the boats have a Bermuda rig and going to gaffs and junk rigs, square rigs and such you will almost always give up a good deal of something, whether it's overall performance, close hauled performance, ease of handling, cost, weight, something.

However, the bottom line is boating isn't only about efficiency and performance, it's about what you want. Unless you're in the charter business or hauling copra from some tiny South Sea Island, sailing is about what makes you happy and what you enjoy.

If you like a junk rig it's an interesting option and does offer some advantages (and disadvantages) over a sloop rig. At least in my case, I would want a naval architect to check on the details so I don't end up with a boat that's horribly unstable, has huge weather helm or something else unintended.

Addressing your comment in bold: don't forget marketing. Everything from tail fins on cars to the less efficient swept tail fin of a Cessna to the brand of sheets you sleep on...are greatly influenced by marketing. I suspect this includes sail plans on production boats.

Look at it another way, why does 99% (made up number) of Asia use junk rigs? If you answer, 'tradition' I say it wouldn't become tradition unless it had satisfactory level of efficiency.

You wanna match race, how 'bout a junk and Bermuda rig of equal length?

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by OldPelican

whaddya think?

would look better if it was blue

[Hydra]

I see:
- a sure tendancy to weather helm when going downwind, because the center of aerodynamic effort will move to leeward of the center of hydrodynamic effort
- a sure lack of width in the mast area to attach the shrouds
- a probable lack of strength in the hull to resist the loads transmitted by the mast and the shrouds
- a possible lack of transverse stability because the centre of aerodynamic effort is much higher than with a Marconi rig with the same sail area
- a possible problem with trim resulting from moving the mast weight forward
- the V-berth unusable

Alain

[Jim Cate]

All of the vessels with free standing rigs that I have been aboard had MASSIVE structures below decks to handle the loads imparted by the large cantilevered loads generated by these rigs.

How are you planning to retrofit such a structure?

Jim

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Hydra

I see:
- a sure tendancy to weather helm when going downwind, because the center of aerodynamic effort will move to leeward of the center of hydrodynamic effort

I disagree. I think the boat will have horrible lee helm, which results from when the center of effort moves forward of the center of resistance. This will be magnified by moving all that weight forward, which will result in bow-down trim, which will pull that undersize rudder a bit more out of the water.

Of course, there will be less weight forward if the OP cuts out the v-berth and has a carbon-fibre mast built. At that point, the project could be called, "How to spend $50,000 to turn a $5,000 boat into a worthless junk."

[OldPelican]

Originally Posted by Hydra

I see:
- a sure tendancy to weather helm when going downwind, because the center of aerodynamic effort will move to leeward of the center of hydrodynamic effort

And yet there are, and have been for millenia, thousands of lug, lateen, crab claw etc. rigs sailing with no such probplem. It's a matter of the mast placement and sail design right.

- a sure lack of width in the mast area to attach the shrouds

It's a free standing mast.

- a probable lack of strength in the hull to resist the loads transmitted by the mast and the shrouds

A) Watkins hulls are overbuilt and B) While the mast is heavier, there is actually less compression load without the shrouds trying to bow-and-arrow it through the bottom.

- a possible lack of transverse stability because the centre of aerodynamic effort is much higher than with a Marconi rig with the same sail area

The center of effort is actually lower on this type of rig and the mast is shorter than an equivalent Marconi.

- a possible problem with trim resulting from moving the mast weight forward

I'll be moving the water tankage out of the v-berth and sufficiently aft.

- the V-berth unusable

In my opinion, most v-berths are unusable. In any event, I never intend to use it as a berth anyway. It's still usable for many other things

What interests me about such rigs is there ease of handling in all conditions by a superannuated singlehander like me

Oh, and they're extremely cheap :P

[Teknav]

For this kind of sail structure on this boat, he/she'd better have a 10 ft keel, at least.

Mauritz
Knows and sees all...

[barnakiel]

I can think of at least 3 cases when our friends converted, or sold, their junk rigs. Why?

This much said, I like the rig and I think if it is executed well, it makes plenty of sense in some situations.

I say go for it and see if it works for you.

b.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Richard5

Addressing your comment in bold: don't forget marketing. Everything from tail fins on cars to the less efficient swept tail fin of a Cessna to the brand of sheets you sleep on...are greatly influenced by marketing. I suspect this includes sail plans on production boats.

Marketing is exactly the reason that I am sure the standard Bermuda rig is the best all around. If the the junk rig or any other rig was clearly superior then it is 100% certain that some enterprising entrepreneur would realize it, build a boat with that rig and sell more boats than all the other stupid boat builders that were too wrapped up in their hype to see the holy grail of rigs.

In recent years I have seen boats with unstayed masts, wishbone booms, A-frame masts, single masts, double masts, masts at the bow, wing sails, wing masts, verticle rotating wind turbines, masts in the middle, even no mast kite sails on boats. If some rig was so much better and didn't have some significant drawback or compromise then someone would be selling it and getting rich.

Originally Posted by Richard5

Look at it another way, why does 99% (made up number) of Asia use junk rigs? If you answer, 'tradition' I say it wouldn't become tradition unless it had satisfactory level of efficiency.

Because that rig fills a need in that market. They are easy to handle, cheap and simple to build and rig, can use very cheap sails to get reasonable performance.

Originally Posted by Richard5

You wanna match race, how 'bout a junk and Bermuda rig of equal length?

Don't have time, not a racer, don't have a junk rig to bring to the table but feel free to set it up. But think about it, in the past 20 years or so there have plenty of races with no restrictions on rig. How many of them even had a junk rig entered? None that I know of.