Into the ice with plastic or 100% ONLY with metal?

[barnakiel]

Fram was wood, I think.


Steel is nice, that's sure. But you should consider many design details, not just material.


b.

[Ibetitsthisway]

I know the albin vega Story.
Well... Surely a great sportive achievement and maybe well suited to make a living from such ventures... But... I Would Not do it in an albin.
And my sweetheart Would surely Not join me If i did.

That said... i own an albin 25 and we love the boat for very very chaep Coastal cruising in summer.

[ohthetrees]

Nickel copper?
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...at-195542.html

[Ibetitsthisway]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Fram was wood, I think.


Steel is nice, that's sure. But you should consider many design details, not just material.


b.

I do not Find the right boat because i am Stück With my checkboxes.. :

Steel
Pilot house
Long to full keel
Avs min. 150 degrees
WTertight bulkheads
Ketch
2 heating systems
!arge water and Diesel bunks
Not to large windows
No Windows in transom
Min 90cm searail
Watertight If capzised
Etc etc etc..

The Big question is... Or was... Plastic or steel.
But to me it seems That steel is the safe way to go...

[captmikem]

I have been in the ice in steel boats and aluminum. There were times (in a steel tug) that I had to break ice, and (again in a steel tug) I have been frozen up in a flow. But most times in the ice you rarely come in hard contact. Once, in an aluminum yacht I was in a flow of broken sheet ice for about 12 hours, I slid through it slowly without much aggressive contact. Most of the contact I have had with ice would have been fine in a solid glass hull. Thin hulls (hunters beneteaus etc) I would not do.

Most of the time you are in Ice is summertime and it is light most of the time so hitting ice in low vis is not much of a problem in a small boat.

I would say it depends on where you are bound. Up the glacier arms in Alaska there is a lot of ice normally, and I see dozens of glass boats enjoying the ice. If you are thinking of the NW passage…I would only do steel or aluminum.
M

[Scorpius]

Ice will gouge glass, aluminum, etc. Steel is the only material that will significantly resist gouging. A few encounters with multi-year ice (although there is much less of that around than there used to be) will make a mess of fibreglas, and may well result in penetration, regardless of thickness.

Yes you'll be motoring most of the way. Unless you have RIDICULOUS fuel capacity you will need to re-fuel enroute. It's hundreds of miles between available fuel stops, fuel may be in short supply depending on how the sea-lift went that particular year and may be limited to serving local residents. Also people have been known to pass out upon hearing the price of Diesel. Give the Co-op stores in Cambridge Bay and Gjoa Haven a call for a reality check before going down this road too far.

If you've never been through the Northwest Passage (I have, although not on Scorpius) do it first as crew on somebody else's boat before making the HUGE investment necessary to do it in your own.

[Ibetitsthisway]

Thats the point.
Living in germany Most of sailing wil be icefree.
A possible circumvention will be icefree.
Ice will be a once in a lifetime adventure.

BUT one Hit With ice at night... Very very Bad... Once in a lifetime...

[hpeer]

Fram

Yes wood.

Nansen wanted the ship in one year; he was eager to get away before anyone else could adopt his ideas and forestall him.[25] The ship's most significant external feature was the roundness of the hull, designed so that there was nothing upon which the ice could get a grip. Bow, stern and keel were rounded off, and the sides smoothed so that, in Nansen's words, the vessel would "slip like an eel out of the embraces of the ice".[26] To give exceptional strength the hull was sheathed in South American greenheart, the hardest timber available. The three layers of wood forming the hull provided a combined thickness of between 24 and 28 inches (60–70 cm), increasing to around 48 inches (1.25 metres) at the bow, which was further protected by a protruding iron stem. Added strength was provided by crossbeams and braces throughout the length of the hull.[26]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nans...xpedition#Ship

[Ibetitsthisway]

Read the book when i was 15.

Well...lived one Winter near Polar circle
Travel Island in snow
Spent New years eve on Spitzbergen..

Want to sail nwp

I guess the book made same impression on me... Lol.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by captmikem

I have been in the ice in steel boats and aluminum. There were times (in a steel tug) that I had to break ice, and (again in a steel tug) I have been frozen up in a flow. But most times in the ice you rarely come in hard contact. Once, in an aluminum yacht I was in a flow of broken sheet ice for about 12 hours, I slid through it slowly without much aggressive contact. Most of the contact I have had with ice would have been fine in a solid glass hull. Thin hulls (hunters beneteaus etc) I would not do.

Most of the time you are in Ice is summertime and it is light most of the time so hitting ice in low vis is not much of a problem in a small boat.

I would say it depends on where you are bound. Up the glacier arms in Alaska there is a lot of ice normally, and I see dozens of glass boats enjoying the ice. If you are thinking of the NW passage…I would only do steel or aluminum.
M

This is a good comment because it points out how one mans ice is not another’s.

I don’t disagree with anything you say. My sailing area, Eastern Newfoundland and Labrador, is different. We have bergs that ground and disintegrate. They throw off what I call “debris fields” which consist of “growlers” and “bergs bits”. These are just incrementally smaller chunks of berg. You do not want to hit these things at any speed.

On a normal year it’s not that big a deal, they kinda stay in their “alley” and there aren’t that many. Last year was exceptional and the damn things where everywhere. A real hazard.

So here’s the situation, you are trying to make a passage. You need to run through about 100nm of water with ice bergs. The water is 35°F, there is a 5’ swell running, there is little wind and it may not be helpful, there is thick fog, it sucks the warmth from your marrow. There is no standing watch in the cockpit because it is completely miserable and pointless, you can’t see anything anyway. So you sit below staring at radar KNOWING that the radar will not pick up a bergy bit. So it’s imprudent to motor above collision speed.

Now that may not be what the OP has in mind, but it exactly what I experienced last summer. Thankfully the motor took a crap and I aborted. What unnerved me was that the one time the fog partially cleared I could see 2 bergs within a mile, and I could not see either on the radar. And I used to be a radar tech.

Here is my advice: buy steel and sail likes it’s glass.

[tarian]

Originally Posted by Ibetitsthisway

Well... 80 is the planed wish price. If it is 90 it wount be a game Stopper.
But i dont want to spent 120 plus... Eh.... Engine refit for example.

I do have the experience That boats can realistically sell for 30-50% off the asking price... Thus i am looking for up to a Max of 150 asking price.
But Please.. Lets Not get into a pricing Debate before i even dont know where to turn Material and sail wise.

... Deep in my heart i know... Fishers and alike Are great rough water cruisers...but wrong Material for ice and Rock contact...

Your specs as you have said is that there is no iCE in Germany were you are based and then you say that you want to circumnavigate and once in a lifetime maybe go to ICE were is this ICE , in Summer a lot of places are ICE free unless your heading deep within the Arctic circle .

Price does play a significant role especially with your budget and requirements , also a circumnavigation with a motorsailor might see you burn a lot of fuel for something that might not happen.

your requirement list is as always your perfect boat but as you know there is no such thing and you will need to seriously think about letting go of some of your requirements.

the 2 boats shown up in the list and great boasts for circumnavigating and ice work but as you say no enclosed cockpit .

Do you really truly believe you will enter the ice and why. if it might only be !% of your sailing, you might be looking for a long time , remember boats sell for what the owners wants so 20 to 50 % less of asking price would be a boat that needs work and you also said you do not want this

these are comments to only help you understand that you might be wishful thinking IMHO

[hpeer]

Google Meta Damien, about 50’, round hull, some/many with centerboard, schooner.

There are a few within your price range. I know of one they hauled out in Resolute with a tractor and rollers. Was used for Arctic charters.

Not pilothouse but in your price range.

[patrick brooks]

I started considered Ice protection/ hull / keel type to travel north gulf of Alaska Aleutian is. hard to find cost projection for Kevlar belt, pointed to how difficult to do this as a do it yourselfer. I starting with older solid fiberglass hull. still dream goes on fair winds

[rhubstuff]

After spending two and a half years on a Coast Guard ice breaker, I would not venture into ice-choked waters with a fiberglass boat. Even thin, skim ice can damage fiberglass. Metal is the answer. With a metal boat, you can build a cage around the propeller that will keep chunks of ice from damaging your prop. Hundreds of commercial boats have them, albeit more to deflect pot lines than for ice. Personally, I would insist the boat be ice-classed by a recognized registration authority. A flooding emergency in the Arctic/Antarctic is, by definition, life-threatening.

[Ibetitsthisway]

@rhubstuff and others here

I know you are 100% right. Thank you for "correcting my inner values".

during the last month I have read and spoken books and people about this topic and all and everywhere "metal" was the answer. And I am the one who repeatedly stated that safty is first in high latitudes. If your boat fails in arctic waters - your dead.

I will forget about either the ice or the fiberglas - but I will not go into the ice with fiberglas.

by the way - there is a couple from austria (www.fortgeblasen.at) who have spent 4 winters now on their boat frozen in ice and made the nwp and they say that the prop cage can also make the ice get stuck at the prop...? they are voting against cage.. but thats off topic...