Is Alberg the best production designer ever?

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Lance Monotone

I was wondering about gas vs diesel. What are the pros for gas, if any? I mean, surely they had a reason to go with gas on this boat?



And hmmm, you're right. They can only say no.

Gas engines were normal on smaller boats thru the 1960s. 1970s & ‘80s were the transition period.

Pros for an Atomic-4 are Moyer marine & lots of other A-4 owners to get help from. Some of the parts can be obtained at a regular car parts store, you don’t need to pay “marine” prices.
Palmer or Gray’s Marine engines also have a marine supplier semi-dedicated to helping them live on.
Pros for gas at that you can run all day or for days at a time at low throttle and it’s not considered bad the way it is for diesels. Best fuel economy speed for a boat that size is about 3.5kt. If you are really desperate to motor a very long ways in a calm that’s the speed.

Pros for diesel are better fuel economy, 30%ish better range for a given speed and fuel volume. Slightly safer, it’s not that gas is dangerous, it’s just less safe.

The wisdom is that diesels don’t like to run long periods at low throttle, say less than 2/3 rpm, 3/4 would be better. Carbon buildup in the cylinders. I’ve heard suggestions of running the engine at what’re low Rpm you want most of an hour at a time then run fast & hot for 5-10min before starting over. No opinion on the effects of this whether it works or maybe leads to different issues.

Newer diesels also tend to have common rail injection, they need pristinely clean fuel. I would much rather clean or rebuild a carb than deal with that.

Regarding the dangerousness of gasoline: are you willing to have propane aboard, different but related issue.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Cal 39 comes to mind

Which model? The first one was super fast but didn’t sell well because of interior accommodations I assume. The first one would be my choice.

I’m actually more partial to the 34.1 & 36, more my size.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Lance Monotone

Thank you for that dose of reality and I absolutely appreciate you taking the time to talk it out. It is a truth that most of these YT sailors are starting at zero, just like me, so I'm attempting to mimic their path. Even though they don't have the knowledge you and others have, they are doing it, apparently successfully. CF is actually the first time I've spoken to anyone with any real-world experience, and I don't know what I don't know.

Another concern is I've been reading that some modern production boats are not as well-made as older ones, but without without builder or design familiarity I'm at a loss as to which to steer clear of. Perhaps materials technology makes up for brute strength, but there are sooo many boats that I need to constrain the parameters to prevent option paralysis. So, again, that means going with the boats I'm familiar with from YT. Also, I'd be happy with a skeg rudder but I haven't been seeing many at my price point, so I gave up.

To be quite honest, this life I am choosing scares the bejesus out of me, which is exactly the reason I'm doing it. I just want to do it safely. I'm certainly not challenging you or anyone here, but just explaining my choices thus far. With more experience will surely come more wisdom and someday I will doubtlessly be giving your same advice to a green sailor like myself.

So if I may be so bold to ask, you are starting by focusing on the boat, a design you think may be good for you, but is this about boat choices or a lifestyle you are after? No criticism, just curious. I hear you saying you want to get out there and you want a safe boat to get you there. That's good, but the boat alone won't really ensure safety. Plenty of people sail around the world in little and lightweight boats, and others head out in heavy behemoths and find disaster. I think once you get more sailing experience, and nothing against the Alberg 30, it is very similar to mine, but as you get more experience, your choices in boats may change. The safety and security you seek in getting "out there" will grow from your self-confidence in being out there regardless of what you are floating in I think. Don't get me wrong, I love my little boat, but I love it for what it can do for me, for how well it does it, for what I want to do and where I am doing it. Many designs appeal to me for a variety of reasons and many do not appeal to me for a variety of reasons, but I'd still be happy to sail any of them, at least for a few days. Something I suggest to others, because it worked for me, is that you seek out a well-respected delivery skipper and volunteer to crew from him or her. You can get a great education that way, on boats, on yourself being out there and how it is to just get a boat from point to point, and to be out on the sea for a while.
By the way I happen to think the conversion to the outboard as Baldwin did can be a good one, but I wouldn't pay $20k for a boat and then rip out the engine and then remodel it. The boat sounds overpriced unless it is in unusually excellent condition.
In any event, best of luck in your adventures, and really...you know what? Don't listen to me, forget all this advice... just go out and get the boat that makes your heart skip a beat and enjoy every minute of it!

[MarkSF]

Later Bristols, like my 31.1, have modified fin keels, and a skeg-hung, well-protected rudder.

It's not just about protecting the rudder - it also protects the prop from fishing gear.

Having said that, the previous owner managed to wrap a jib sheet around the prop, the coiled rope forcing the prop shaft out, yanking the engine off its mounts, and jamming the prop into the rudder. Also pulled the jib furler down and ripped the jib. Thus managed to lose steering, and both means of propulsion. Also started to ship a lot of water by all accounts.

Not sure what the moral of this story is. Boat design is no substitute for seamanship?

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by Lance Monotone

I agree, Sparkman and Stephens has some pretty boats but from what I see most are waaay out of my budget!

I just read a long thread from December discussing full keel boats which was very informative. I'm sure the more I dig into CF the more I will learn. Thank you so much for taking the time to offer your thoughts.

Both the Tartan 30 and 34 are S&S and can be had for $20K.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Which model? The first one was super fast but didn’t sell well because of interior accommodations I assume. The first one would be my choice.

I’m actually more partial to the 34.1 & 36, more my size.

The Cal 39 MkII is the one I like. I am curious how well they are built. The Cal 40 had it's problems with how it was put together. My friend has a later 35 which was robust. I always wonder how thick the hulls are. My Hallberg Rassy was 5/8" to 3/4 at the bilge. My Tartan Blackwatch 37 was over 1" in some areas. The same with my Ingrid 38. My Westsail 28 is nowhere near that but it is somewhat smaller.

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by Lance Monotone

I was wondering about gas vs diesel. What are the pros for gas, if any? I mean, surely they had a reason to go with gas on this boat?

And hmmm, you're right. They can only say no.

Stay away from gas engines for long-term cruising. That's the short answer.

Read Adelie's post above. He goes into much more (and better) detail about diesel than I have below.

My longer answer:
Gas fuel is exceptionally more explosive than Diesel. You'll want to do everything to reduce any possibility of onboard fire.
The common gas engine on these classic plastics is the Atomic 4. They are dinosaurs. Cheap, simple engines and easy to fix - if you can find the parts, but I loathe the fact that they really have no tick-over speed for slow manouvring in an anchorage - or, more importantly, for docking.

Ugh, ugh, ugh!

You likely won't find any of these engines on a classic plastic yacht - even if they've been re-powered - but my current favourite engine is a Beta because it does not use common rail technology so I can still fix it myself. Next would be Yanmar (also the older non-CR versions like the 2GM), which I've sailed extensively with - although Yanmar's parts-pricing is now as astronomical as Volvo, who have been price-gouging for eons. Third choice would be Volvo (also older versions w/ non-CR) - which are fantastic marine diesels, but I can't afford their parts.

Good luck with your search,
LittleWing77

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I'm surprised that no one has suggested Bob Perry as one of the great cruising boat designers. His track record is right up there IMO, and he's still around to throw stones at!

And once again I'm surprised at the number of absolute newbies that have shown up lately insisting on full keel designs when they have sailed none of them. go figger...
This prejudice is pretty local to the USA... most of the world goes cruising in more modern designs. Not making any value judgement there, but noting a statistical anomaly (IMO).

Jim

It's worth saying that new sailors should not form their opions, or at least set them in stone, on the basis of something they read on forums. They should by all means go sailing with boats of different types and form their own opinions. It's definitely a matter of taste and everyone is entitled to his own taste but try before buying!

Full keels died out decades ago and for good reason -- they have many disadvantages. There is a small but vocal group of traditionalists who keep the mystique alive, but for 90% or more of cruisers full keel would never be the choice. For most of us, slow is NOT fun, pointing ability is important, maneuverability in reverse is important, excessive heeling is awful on long passages, and a good quality fin keel boat is plenty strong enough, as evidenced by the thousands of them crossing oceans every year. It is not an accident that virtually all new boats have been built with fin keels for decades, with the exception of Island Packet (now defunct) and Rustler (oddball small volume maker).

And to the OP: Size matters. The average cruising boat these days is about 40 feet. A lightly built 40 footer will be as seaworthy as a heavy 30 footer, and will be much, much faster and much more fun to sail. A 30 foot full keel cruising boat will be like living in a camping trailer, will be extremely slow, and because of its small size will not have any significant advantages in seaworthiness. You will make up your own mind what you like, but I would suggest casting your net a bit wider and at least looking at, and sailing on, some boats which are a bit larger, and NOT full keel.

My previous boat, a Pearson 365, with a long fin keel and heavy skeg protected rudder, was an America's Cup racer compared to the boats you are looking at, but for me was impossibly slow, with poor windward performance, so we used the motor much of the time instead of bothering to sail -- one of the serious disadvantages of slow boats. I cannot even imagine going to something even smaller and slower than that. If I were on a really severe budget, I believe I would look for something like an old Jeanneau, cheap mass produced boats but which unlike the Bene's of that era were stick built (no hull liner) through the '90's, and try to find one of 38 to 40 feet. Not the best quality boat, not all that strong, but strong enough, and with more than decent sailing performance, and very comfortable accomodation. That would make a great starter boat. I wouldn't turn my nose up at a Catalina, either. I had one of those decades ago. Not the strongest or best built boat in the world, but more than strong enough 10x over for the Caribbean, and with pretty good sailing performance and pretty decent accomodation. I wouldn't want a sailboat which doesn't sail, and I would caution you to think twice about that yourself. Good luck!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by MarkSF

Later Bristols, like my 31.1, have modified fin keels, and a skeg-hung, well-protected rudder.

It's not just about protecting the rudder - it also protects the prop from fishing gear.

Having said that, the previous owner managed to wrap a jib sheet around the prop, the coiled rope forcing the prop shaft out, yanking the engine off its mounts, and jamming the prop into the rudder. Also pulled the jib furler down and ripped the jib. Thus managed to lose steering, and both means of propulsion. Also started to ship a lot of water by all accounts.

Not sure what the moral of this story is. Boat design is no substitute for seamanship?

Ha, ha. Definitely

The other moral of the story is that what looks like a "protected" prop probably isn't, just like a "protected" rudder isn't.

Nothing beats a good rope cutter on the propeller shaft.

And nothing beats a well-built spade rudder. I don't have one, but my next boat surely will. The great designer Bob Perry, mentioned upthread, is fond of saying that typically rudders hold up skegs, not vice versa. They seriously compromise the hydrodynamic performance of the rudder without adding anything you can't get from building the spade rudder properly.

[boatman61]

If you live by set schedules buy a fin keeled boat..
If you have time to spare and are chill buy a Nicholson 32..

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatman61

If you live by set schedules buy a fin keeled boat..
If you have time to spare and are chill buy a Nicholson 32..

But what if you have time to spare and are chill, but you really like to sail, and don't want to motor upwind?

[searoom]

The Alberg and Bristol are a nice older bluewater boat.
Be aware and check for any leaks at hull to deck joint down below.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

But what if you have time to spare and are chill, but you really like to sail, and don't want to motor upwind?

Depends.

Sometimes I have to sail a bit Northwest to get to the Southwestern part of the bay I am headed to.

The sail/tack toward the NW is the shorter tack of say 6 miles then after tacking it's maybe 21 miles on the other tack to get home

Tide has a huge affect also in the bay so planning ahead helps.

Same with larger distance but the Skipper will have to decide the strategy.

Many times these days, I will sail North to the NW side of the bay, then sail home at the end of the weekend using the SW prevailing wind and come all the way back on the one tack........

[rgleason]

Bristol 32, full keel has 75 gals plus a bow tank that is smaller.

[Shanachie]

I owned a Bristol 30 for 10 years and now own a Catalina 320.


The pluses for small, old long-keelers are that sailboats of this design are extremely seaworthy and can plow through chops that stop newer boats cold.


The minuses of these types of sailboats: Three- to four-knot cruising, lots of initial heel, no room in the cabin, poor access to the diesel, crappy hull-deck joints that leak, poor pointing ability, substandard wiring, narrow side decks, no easy way to climb aboard or carry dinghy.



Pluses for the Catalina: Very fast, OK pointing, extremely comfortable, easy access to diesel and everything else that needs maintenance, sails flat, lots of room, no leaks, no teak, swim platform that can carry dinghy.


The minuses for the Catalina: Flattish bottom that stops the boat in a steep chop, not really built for long distances offshore, wing keel can be problematic if you run aground, rudder is not protected with a skeg.