Is Alberg the best production designer ever?

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Greg,
You're current boat is 17 sa/disp, but that is pretty high for the typical designs being discussed in this thread. The Alberg 35 is 14.8. My current cruising boat is 18.8 and my previous cruising boat was 21 sa/disp.

Yes, I agree Paul, 17 is high for a traditional boat, but mine is certainly not the only one. A Bristol Channel Cutter 28, for example, which most folks who don't know any better would consider a full keel slow poke, is actually a pretty quick boat with a Sail/Displ ratio of 18.6 and a very long waterline.
Like I said, there is quite a bit of variance in the traditional designs.
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/br...channel-cutter

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Greg K

Yes, I agree Paul, 17 is high for a traditional boat, but mine is certainly not the only one. A Bristol Channel Cutter 28, for example, which most folks who don't know any better would consider a full keel slow poke, is actually a pretty quick boat with a Sail/Displ ratio of 18.6 and a very long waterline.
Like I said, there is quite a bit of variance in the traditional designs.
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/br...channel-cutter

The full keel boats are still really slow as compared to fin keel especially a fin keel racing boat. You have to look at other data besides SA/Disp.

The Bristol Channel Cutter 28 has the same rating as an Alberg 30 which is a very slow 228. My boat is competitive with them.

Capri 25 PHRF 174 (Fin)
Bristol 27 PHRF 240
Express 27 PHRF 141 (Fin)
Bristol Channel Cutter 28 PHRF 228 Displacement 14,000 lbs
HawkFarm 28 PHRF 162 (Fin) Displacement 5,700 lbs
Shannon 28 PHRF 222
Catalina 30 TM PHRF 174 (Fin)
Olson 30 PHRF 108 (Fin) Displacement 3600
Alberg 35 PHRF 201
Outbound 44 PHRF 90 (Fin)

I have raced an Alberg 30 on numerous occasions, and the boats are basically the same speed.

The Hawkfarm 28 is around 162.

The Express 27 fin keel racing boat has a rating of around 132-141.

Also in a distance race many times it's what wind you have. Sometimes boats get lucky and sail in good wind. Also if the race is a reach or a downwind race the full keel boats have a bit of a chance but if the wind goes forward of the beam much the full keel boats race is pretty much over as compared to a fin keel sailboat unless the wind is patchy

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Greg K

Yes, I agree Paul, 17 is high for a traditional boat, but mine is certainly not the only one. A Bristol Channel Cutter 28, for example, which most folks who don't know any better would consider a full keel slow poke, is actually a pretty quick boat with a Sail/Displ ratio of 18.6 and a very long waterline.
Like I said, there is quite a bit of variance in the traditional designs.
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/br...channel-cutter

BCCs are certainly nice looking boats. It may have a 'very long waterline' as long as you don't compare it any modern boat that fits in the same size berth
As our beach cat expert points out, probably a better comparison for sailing performance between similar length boats is PHRF ratings. They aren't perfect but are really good high level comparisons. Usually when the ratings are brought out the instant response is comfort at sea for a cruiser. Obviously a 'measure' that is primarily subjective. For me, my Alberg 35 was less comfortable than either of my performance cruisers offshore by a long shot. Laying on your ear, hobby horsing, needing more sail for the same conditions, yet still slower.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by Lance Monotone

PS, I have decided I love the Alberg 30. This one is outside my budget but it's sweeeeeet. https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/88249

That’s a ridiculous wishful thinking price for an A30 with atomic 4 engine

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by thomm225

You have to look at other data besides SA/Disp.

The Bristol Channel Cutter 28 has the same rating as an Alberg 30 which is a very slow 228. My boat is competitive with them.

Nonsense. Follow your own advice above. A BCC, with a 26.25 foot waterline and a theoretical max hull speed of 6.87 will leave you behind and out of sight on the first day. My Shannon 28 with a 23 foot waterline wouldn't take much longer to do the same.

[Compass790]

I dont know the availability in the USA but H28's are popular here if you are fixated on full keel boats. Assumed ( maybe wrongly ) that being an American designer they would be around. Plenty have been offshore & some have circumnavigated.

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by Paul L

BCCs are certainly nice looking boats. It may have a 'very long waterline' as long as you don't compare it any modern boat that fits in the same size berth
As our beach cat expert points out, probably a better comparison for sailing performance between similar length boats is PHRF ratings. They aren't perfect but are really good high level comparisons. Usually when the ratings are brought out the instant response is comfort at sea for a cruiser. Obviously a 'measure' that is primarily subjective. For me, my Alberg 35 was less comfortable than either of my performance cruisers offshore by a long shot. Laying on your ear, hobby horsing, needing more sail for the same conditions, yet still slower.

The A35 is also a very nice looking boat, but I do agree with you about the excessive hobbyhorsing and sailing on your ear. I had the same issues with my former A30, though much less so with the Cape Dory 36 which is a more moderate version of the CCA design type with proportionally less overhang, more beam and, consequently a stiffer, more comfortable cruising boat.

It's interesting to see how sailors evolve over time in their preferences. Your own evolution towards larger, more modern and comfortable designs is quite understandable. My own has been quite the opposite in both hull and rig design. Wouldn't be surprised at all to find myself sailing a proper full keel gaff cutter like Atkins Ben Bow in my eighties
Atkin & Co. - Ben Bow

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Greg K

Nonsense. Follow your own advice above. A BCC, with a 26.25 foot waterline and a theoretical max hull speed of 6.87 will leave you behind and out of sight on the first day. My Shannon 28 with a 23 foot waterline wouldn't take much longer to do the same.

As I said, the BCC has a PHRF of 228 which is very slow.

Its the same as an Alberg 30.

A friend of mine and I probably did 10 races over a 12 mile course singlehanded with me coming out on top every time which was probably due to my racing experience (about 450 races buoy and distance) and newer sails. The course was a triangle with usually the last leg being upwind.

What we learned though was that the boats are about the same speed. Bristol 27 PHRF 232-240 depending on which site you get you info from. Alberg 30 PHRF 228.

The BCC is such a heavy boat it would take quite a while to get the thing going as it's displacement is 14,000 lbs.

My boat is 6600 lbs disp. The Alberg 30 is 9,000 lb disp

Also, I'm quite sure you couldn't touch me on your Shannon 28 due to it's weight and my racing experience.

As I said, you have to look at all the data.

FYI ...... I removed the 352 lb 10 hp Bukh Diesel that was in my boat plus all associated hardware (motor mounts, stuffing box, prop shaft, prop, controls, linkage, muffler, 20 gallon fuel tank, copper fuel lines , etc) so I have no drag there and a much lighter boat.

(replaced with a 58 lb 5 hp outboard that is raised when not in use. I usually have 2-4 gallons of gas onboard for it.)

Plus my boat only has an 8' beam whereas the BCC and Shannon 28 have 9.5' and 10'

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Greg K

The A35 is also a very nice looking boat, but I do agree with you about the excessive hobbyhorsing and sailing on your ear. I had the same issues with my former A30, though much less so with the Cape Dory 36 which is a more moderate version of the CCA design type with proportionally less overhang, more beam and, consequently a stiffer, more comfortable cruising boat.

It's interesting to see how sailors evolve over time in their preferences. Your own evolution towards larger, more modern and comfortable designs is quite understandable. My own has been quite the opposite in both hull and rig design. Wouldn't be surprised at all to find myself sailing a proper full keel gaff cutter like Atkins Ben Bow in my eighties
Atkin & Co. - Ben Bow

Well I'd like to say I'll be sailing offshore in my eighties in an Open 40 , but the reality is it will more likely be a trawler.

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by thomm225

As I said, the BCC has a PHRF of 228 which is very slow.

Its the same as an Alberg 30.

A friend of mine and I probably did 10 races over a 12 mile course singlehanded with me coming out on top every time which was probably due to my racing experience (about 450 races buoy and distance) and newer sails. The course was a triangle with usually the last leg being upwind.

Apples and oranges. Not talking about around the buoy races.

Open ocean conditions... a passage to Bermuda say. No comparison.

You'd lose sight of the BCC in a day, max, and it wouldn't be behind you.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Greg K

Apples and oranges. Not talking about around the buoy races.

Open ocean conditions... a passage to Bermuda say. No comparison.

You'd lose sight of the BCC in a day, max, and it wouldn't be behind you.

Yeah the BCC would be better in open ocean racing if the wind (and waves) got up, but if not, it could end up wallowing in the waves whereas my boat would pull away.

Each boat would have it's happy place that would benefit it just like in some of the old America's Cup races where some boats were better in light air and some better in heavy air.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Lance Monotone

Thank you for that dose of reality and I absolutely appreciate you taking the time to talk it out. It is a truth that most of these YT sailors are starting at zero, just like me, so I'm attempting to mimic their path. Even though they don't have the knowledge you and others have, they are doing it, apparently successfully. CF is actually the first time I've spoken to anyone with any real-world experience, and I don't know what I don't know.

Another concern is I've been reading that some modern production boats are not as well-made as older ones, but without without builder or design familiarity I'm at a loss as to which to steer clear of. Perhaps materials technology makes up for brute strength, but there are sooo many boats that I need to constrain the parameters to prevent option paralysis. So, again, that means going with the boats I'm familiar with from YT. Also, I'd be happy with a skeg rudder but I haven't been seeing many at my price point, so I gave up.

To be quite honest, this life I am choosing scares the bejesus out of me, which is exactly the reason I'm doing it. I just want to do it safely. I'm certainly not challenging you or anyone here, but just explaining my choices thus far. With more experience will surely come more wisdom and someday I will doubtlessly be giving your same advice to a green sailor like myself.

I think you’re on a good track towards searching for a good first boat that will serve you well. Regarding those who can’t resist trying to talk you into a fin/spade boat, understand that they can’t seem to help themselves from doing that to every new sailor and what they say is usually technically correct, but there’s nothing at all wrong with starting out with an older, full keel, ruggedly built classic design as you seem inclined to do. Once you’ve sailed it for awhile and gained more confidence in your own abilities your ideas about what characteristics you like best will undoubtedly evolve and at that point you may well decide a fin/spade boat is for you. But for now, there’s nothing wrong with getting a rugged, full keel, classic boat as a starting point in your boat ownership journey.

One thing the fin/spade for everyone true believer crowd frequently leaves out of the equation for a newbie sailor is their budget. While I believe it’s true that there are a great many excellent, very safe cruising designs out there with Spade rudders, most of the good cruising ones cost more than your budget allows. There’s a lot more availability of older, strongly built, full keel boats than well engineered, strongly built fin/spade boats ‘within your budget’ so once someone becomes persuaded to start looking for a rugged, well engineered and built fin/spade boat, he realizes his budget isn’t big enough or realizes there’s little to no availability of the boat he’s been talked into at his budget level so gets discouraged and sometimes gives up altogether. So I hate to see this syndrome of well intended experienced sailors trying to persuade new sailors into buying racing flats before they can even crawl.

I started with a full keel boat and since then have had 2 Bob Perry designed fin/skeg boats and have liked them all a lot. Even though I like my skeg protected rudders I wouldn’t reject a well built boat with a spade rudder but that’s just for me personally at my experience level. Perry is known for his fairly conservative, longer fin keels with skeg protected rudders and in his later years also designed some fin/spade boats. Most of his designs (Valiant 40 and Tayana 37 for example) have cruised extensively and were very ruggedly built so you might want to consider them, though I’m not familiar with any full keel boats that he drew. But if you take a look at the underbodies of his boats with fin keels you’ll notice that they are massively strong and have more in common with a classic full keel boat than a more modern and aggressive fin that tends to be much thinner and have a shorter chord length, and there’s absolutely no way you could break one off.

So good luck with your search and if a classic, full keeled boat is what you need at your current experience/confidence/budget level, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. It’s true that lots of fin keeled boats will pass you and be more maneuverable in marinas but it’s not like all full keel boats are real dogs either. The good ones, like the Cape Dory’s and Bristols and Hinckleys, and some others that have been mentioned sail very well and will give you the confidence to get out there and begin laying that foundation of experience that will make you into a competent cruising sailor.

One characteristic of these older designs is that they are narrower and have deeper hulls than more modern canoe body designs. This makes them tender at first but once they get to a certain level of heel, they harden up and are very seaworthy snd safe. A more modern design has more initial stability due to its shape, but its stability in extreme conditions may be no greater (or even less) than the older design.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

One characteristic of these older designs is that they are narrower and have deeper hulls than more modern canoe body designs. This makes them tender at first but once they get to a certain level of heel, they harden up and are very seaworthy and safe. A more modern design has more initial stability due to its shape, but its stability in extreme conditions may be no greater (or even less) than the older design.

That's true but you still need to adjust your sails.... reef early, etc.

This video is after a front rolled in as I was crossing the Chesapeake Bay from East to West.

The temp went from mid 80's to high 60's in a couple hours.

I'm heading for that headland center right in the video which is the entrance to Mobjack Bay.

The boat is really healing since I still had full main up, but the wind was probably less than 20 knots

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3I2zc0_7wY

[Lance Monotone]

Originally Posted by GordMay

You can use 'Carl’s Sail Calculator' to look up sailboat dimensions in a large database of boats or enter your own boat's dimensions and compare it to the others. In addition, for any boat you can calculate a set of values that will help you measure how it will perform.
Carl's Sail Calculator ➥ Sail Calculator Pro v3.54 - 3200+ boats

Hey, that's a great resource and very cool that someone took the time to make it.

I think that's one of the hardest things about sailboat shopping for a newbie. There's no resource to compare boats side by side. I wish this guy would combine his sail calculator with the images and other specs from sailboatdata.com. Anyway, thanks for sharing that Gord.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Lance Monotone

Hey, that's a great resource and very cool that someone took the time to make it.

I think that's one of the hardest things about sailboat shopping for a newbie. There's no resource to compare boats side by side. I wish this guy would combine his sail calculator with the images and other specs from sailboatdata.com. Anyway, thanks for sharing that Gord.

Along with Sailboatdata, you can also use the PHRF handicapping sites and for offshore racing, the single handed transpac (SHTP) archive which show the boats, their handicap, and their corrected and elapsed finishing times over the 2100 mile San Fancisco to Hawaii race.

These sites give you a good idea of the boat's speed "if it is sailed to its rating."

Keep in mind though that the SHTP Race is usually a spinnaker/broad reaching run almost all the way to Hawaii on port tack. Boats size range from 20' on up both full and fin keel.

http://www.phrfne.org/page/handicapping/base_handicaps

https://www.sfbaysss.net/archive-sht...tsThru2012.pdf