Is this keel corroded?

[Ben NZ]

Hello world,
I am currently going through the tedious of trying to find a boat in the Med.
I found one I like (elan impression) but the photo of the keel got me concerned. I looks to me as if the keel shows way too much texture to just be "old layers of anti fouling" as the owner claims.
Am I right to be concerned? Never seen a keel that hadn't a smooth finish.
I am attaching a screenshot of the photo available to me in the boat description (if I didn't mess that one up).

Thank you for the advice

[LittleWing77]

First off:
Never trust the Seller.
Never trust the Seller's broker.

If you love the boat, put in an offer and make that offer contingent on the survey.

Then get yourself a damn good surveyor and make sure you document (to your surveyor) that you're especially concerned about the seaworthiness of the keel.

What is it made out of, anyway? Is it ferrocement? It's also a weird keel stub and attachment. Without seeing the rest of the boat and knowing more about it, my gut says you're trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear...

Never a good scenario,
LittleWing77

P.S. Maybe ask Boatie (Boatman61). He's pretty familar with a lot of the European boats - he's sailed on most of them!

[Ben NZ]

Thanks for your reply.
Here is the description of the keel by Elan yacht "Elan lead keels have a stainless steel integral spinal grid running right through to the bulb. This grid links up with the keel bolts, and this, coupled with the structural integrity of the hull and the cast-in longitudinal stringers".
The rest of the boat looks pretty good and decently looked after (as far as I can tell).
I have a viewing of the yacht later today, but being on the water, I won't be able to assess the keel before making an offer and paying a surveyor (a lot of money). Which is why I thought I would ask for the point of view of more enlightened people beforehand.

[LittleWing77]

Well, I did send a PM to Boatie and see if he'll reply. He's a delivery skipper, however, and this is his busy season, so he may be off sailing and unavailable.

Good luck,
LW77

[BillKny]

If this is a lead keel (as indicated), there is very little chance that it could be corroded enough to account for this texture. I’d bet on the bottom paint accumulation. But your survey will tell you. A quick scratch on the paint will answer this question.

It is a shame the pictures where not taken BEFORE painting and changing zincs. They would have been a lot more informative about the condition of things.

Even if there was some oddball current leak issue that cause the surface of the lead to corrode, it’s a surface thing. Once the cause is fixed, the keel can be faired, repainted and be as good as new.

BUT… even if it is “just” bottom paint, letting bottom paint accumulate to this extent indicates a rather “casual” approach to maintenance that is likely to be seen in other parts of the boat.

Since the part of the hull visible in the picture seems to be quite a bit smoother, the problem is very likely to be the base coat of paint on the lead. It did not get a good tie to the metal, and has been coming off in bits and pieces.

[Ben NZ]

Thanks a lot for the answers. I'm off to see the boat now. I will see if I can get more information from the vendor. Allegedly they have photos of the "before and after" the paint job.. I'll post an update tonight

[fstbttms]

I always laugh when I see a relatively tiny anode installed to protect hundreds or thousands of pounds of metal. A sure sign that somebody doesn't have a clue about corrosion prevention. I'd bet money that it was installed on top of that new bottom paint too.

[Stewie12]

It looks like a build up of paint over the years.

[Russ]

Lead theoretically is very resistant to corrosion and soft. Doubt what you're seeing is pure lead. Usually, the keel is steel with lead INSIDE the steel keel purely for its weight.

Try a magnet and see!

[Sailmonkey]

1. Why protect a lead keel with a woefully inadequate anode? Or at all for that matter.

2. If this is just bottom paint, why does the hull appear fair?

[Ben NZ]

Originally Posted by BillKny

If this is a lead keel (as indicated), there is very little chance that it could be corroded enough to account for this texture. I’d bet on the bottom paint accumulation. But your survey will tell you. A quick scratch on the paint will answer this question.

It is a shame the pictures where not taken BEFORE painting and changing zincs. They would have been a lot more informative about the condition of things.

Even if there was some oddball current leak issue that cause the surface of the lead to corrode, it’s a surface thing. Once the cause is fixed, the keel can be faired, repainted and be as good as new.

BUT… even if it is “just” bottom paint, letting bottom paint accumulate to this extent indicates a rather “casual” approach to maintenance that is likely to be seen in other parts of the boat.

Since the part of the hull visible in the picture seems to be quite a bit smoother, the problem is very likely to be the base coat of paint on the lead. It did not get a good tie to the metal, and has been coming off in bits and pieces.

So, I saw the boat but didn't get to see the hull. So we'll never get to the bottom of it. When asked about it face to face, they said it was just layers of anti fouling. They didn't have any proper photos either. But BillKny was spot on, the approach to the rest of the boat was pretty casual despite having been told that the boat was in great condition. As if I would not notice once on the boat in person... Anyway, thank you all for your advices and point of views

[kenbo]

From the Elan Impressions brochure: "The cast iron ore lead keel is attached to the hull by premium grade stainless bolts that are highly resistant to corrosion".

Based on this statement, the small anode to "prevent" further corrosion I'm leaning toward a heavily corroded outer cast iron skin with a poured lead interior. IMO it's not the end of the world but would require needle scaling and/or sandblasting to affect the repair.

But the seller's representation has been less than forthright. Be very cautious.

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by Ben NZ

BillKny was spot on, the approach to the rest of the boat was pretty casual - despite having been told that the boat was in great condition. As if I would not notice once on the boat in person...

Amazing, isn't it, how one person's "great" doesn't gybe with the conventional definition of "great"...? Hrumph

Well, you learned three things today:

1. Never trust the Seller (or, not until your own surveyor has come back to you and confirmed that she is, indeed, "great")
2. Always go see the boat in person (!)
3. Sellers will sometimes camouflage more catastrophic damage/lack of upkeep by painting the hull (as you saw); and, as BillKny indicated, once the casual disregard to maintenance was apparent throughout the rest of the boat, you knew that any amount of fresh paint wasn't going to make it into a silk purse.
So you learned to be wary of fresh paint jobs on brokerage boats.

Keep searching - Your boat is out there!
LittleWing77

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by kenbo

From the Elan Impressions brochure: "The cast iron ore lead keel is attached to the hull by premium grade stainless bolts that are highly resistant to corrosion".

Based on this statement, the small anode to "prevent" further corrosion I'm leaning toward a heavily corroded outer cast iron skin with a poured lead interior. IMO it's not the end of the world but would require needle scaling and/or sandblasting to affect the repair.

But the seller's representation has been less than forthright. Be very cautious.

That makes the picture make more sense, What is more worrying is that they choose to use stainless steel in a cast iron keel!

[lordgeoff]

Originally Posted by Ben NZ

Hello world,
I am currently going through the tedious of trying to find a boat in the Med.
I found one I like (elan impression) but the photo of the keel got me concerned. I looks to me as if the keel shows way too much texture to just be "old layers of anti fouling" as the owner claims.
Am I right to be concerned? Never seen a keel that hadn't a smooth finish.
I am attaching a screenshot of the photo available to me in the boat description (if I didn't mess that one up).

Thank you for the advice

I would just tell them the lumpy parts in the picture need to be scraped back to the raw lead or cast iron or whatever material it turns out to be. I would want to know what’s under the antifoul. Pop the anode off as well and see what is underneath? Both are minor requests.