Keel rebedding or engineered fix for this catalina smile on Catalina 36?

[searching207]

Hello everyone, thanks in advance.

I am considering purchasing this boat, 1984 catalina 36 and completing the two Catalina engineered repair jobs myself (attached). I have spoken to some people that havn't seen the boat but say I will need to drop the entire keel and reseal it, a job I can't/dont want to do and dont want to pay a boatyard for. Obviously this is preferred, but is it required? Keel bolts look fine to me. Does anyone have experience with this and can determine from pictures which job is needed. It seems like boatyards I'm talking to are just guessing on what will solve it, so resort to rebedding the entire keel for liability. I think that removing the wood in the keel stub, tightening the keel bolts, grinding down and resealing the outside will get rid of this for good, or at least make it the every other year job that catalina owners suffer from. It definitely looks like the previous owners have attempted these resealing repairs before. Any advice or previous knowledge is appreciated!


Repair Pre-1988 2-1996.pdf Views: 96 Size: 121.2 KB ">CTY-IRJDSUNE9932123321222xxeww-c-30-IRJDSUNE9932123321222xxeww-Keel-IRJDSUNE9932123321222xxeww-Stub-IRJDSUNE9932123321222xxeww-Repair-IRJDSUNE9932123321222xxeww-Pre-1988-IRJDSUNE9932123321222xxeww-2-1996.pdfCTY c-30 keel crack repair 7-1985 rev.5-1996.pdf

[neilpride]

I see cracks in the keel stub to, no idea in a Catalina, but I have already drop a few keels from beneteau`s , and I can tell you that the work is not small for someone who doesn't want to get dirty.

To start with, you should remove all the antifouling from around the keel , stub area .
This way you can see if there are any cracks in the laminate, if there are no cracks there may be that the joint has been filled with filler, some loose bolts, and with the flexing the crack show up again.

If you clear the joint and there is no excessive gap, no cracks in the laminate, and the bolts are fine, you can remove all the stiff filler and apply 4200 or something similar, which is more flexible, followed by re-tightening the bolts to OEM spec.

If the gap is huge and there are cracks in the laminate, things get more complicated, you may have to lower the keel, fix the laminate, re-beed the keel and tighten everything to spec`s , provided the bolts are OK, if not, new bolts to the list.

[Celestialsailor]

Just as a suggestion, if you don't want to take on the repair yourself and I don't blame you for not wanting to do it, find a better quality boat. Not only does the keel to hull joint look bad but the immediate turn into the hull looks stress cracked. Do you really want a boat like that? To me, the "floors"(internal cross members reinforcing the keel area) look small. I'm use to seeing them span a wider distance.

[donradcliffe]

The Catalina smile, which is what you get when you put plywood under the keelbolts in the bilge. It isn't clear to me that this boat has had the factory fix, but it is clear that it has had a hard grounding or two. Not only the cracks at the stub to keel joint, but the cracks at the turn of the stub to the bilge.

[marcjsmith]

could be the "catalina smile" in and of itself not a difficult repair. If it is indeed the smile...



https://www.epoxyworks.com/index.php...es-all-around/

[Tsuru]

I’ve owned a couple Catalina boats including a 36 and they had no keel issues. I think you’ve received some good advice that there is more here than a smile repair. For those who don’t know early on Catalina used plywood to stiffen the area where the keel boats entered the hull. Over time this plywood started to fail, opening the keel seam and exposing the keel bolts to sea water.
Somewhere in the late 80”s they stopped this practice going to solid glass. The problem pretty much went away. Unfortunately like many fin keel boats, grounding can cause hull damage. Pulling the front of the keel down the pushing the back up. Like others have said it looks to me like you have this type of damage.
If you review the Catalina 36 owners site there is very little indication that the stringers have problems which leads me to believe they are adiquate for the design.

If it was me I’d start by calling Catalina. Ask for Warren Pandy (if he hasn’t retired) or someone who can give technical advice on older boats. They have been reliable and honest with me in the past and are probably your best source of information. I’d also consider joining the Catalina 36 owners site and see what the group has to say.

Note that there are 2 more keel bolts foreword of the ones you’ve photographed. These should indicate if you have a grounding problem. Note that Catalina 34’s have a similar keel arrangement and would be a good source of information.

Good luck with the repair. I hope it will be easy, but suspect that it’s going to be an extensive repair.

[wyb2]

Originally Posted by Draggin

…. I have spoken to some people that havn't seen the boat but say I will need to drop the entire keel and reseal it, a job I can't/dont want to do and dont want to pay a boatyard for. Obviously this is preferred, but is it required?

It’s like any preventative maintenance. Required? What are you hoping to do with the boat and what is your risk tolerance? If you are planning to sail warm protected water only, maybe you’re comfortable letting it ride until the keel falls off. Maybe in a couple years, maybe in 100.

I lived and sailed on an 80’s C36 for a year. The keel joint looked better than that, but as I learned more about the boat, and boats in general, I started to notice some evidence of (possibly distant) past damage that had never been disclosed. By the end I had a strong desire to drop the keel and inspect everything, but schedule didn’t allow before we sold the boat. I told the new owner (before final sale) that I thought it should be done and would be on my to-do list if I was keeping the boat.

If I was buying the boat in those pictures, I would 100% drop the keel before I felt confident that the joint was as strong as it was designed to be. I would also closely investigate the cracks above the joint, hard to say from pictures if they are just paint/fairing compound, or something deeper.

Originally Posted by Draggin

Keel bolts look fine to me. Does anyone have experience with this and can determine from pictures which job is needed.

The problem with stainless keel studs that are cast into the keel is that they are basically impossible to inspect without dropping the keel. What the tops look like basically has no relationship to the structural integrity of the important parts hiding down in the hole. I don’t think anyone will be able to tell you from the pictures.

Originally Posted by Draggin

…I think that removing the wood in the keel stub, tightening the keel bolts, grinding down and resealing the outside will get rid of this for good, or at least make it the every other year job that catalina owners suffer from. It definitely looks like the previous owners have attempted these resealing repairs before. Any advice or previous knowledge is appreciated!

The only issue with this plan is that it assumes that the keel bolts/studs are still good. If salt water has gotten in and trapped, they could be corroding away out of sight. If you are lucky, one snaps when you retighten, indicating that there is a problem. If you are unlucky, all of them snap when you run aground one day.

I believe on the larger Catalinas the wood in the keel step was basically a form, not a structural component. The wood should be able to rot away to nothing and the keel step will still be structurally as-designed. It’s been a while, so it’s possible I’m wrong.

I think the Catalina smile was made famous by some of the smaller boats where the plywood was load bearing, and as it got wet and rotted, the keel bolts would lose tension.

[wyb2]

Originally Posted by Tsuru

…
Note that there are 2 more keel bolts foreword of the ones you’ve photographed. …

3, right? 2 right by the mast and 1 central one hiding under the floor in the V-berth I think.

It has been a while.

[Tsuru]

Originally Posted by wyb2

3, right? 2 right by the mast and 1 central one hiding under the floor in the V-berth I think.

It has been a while.

I'm going from memory also... 3 sounds right.

[c.K.]

Originally Posted by Draggin

Hello everyone, thanks in advance.

I am considering purchasing this boat, 1984 catalina 36 and completing the two Catalina engineered repair jobs myself (attached). I have spoken to some people that havn't seen the boat but say I will need to drop the entire keel and reseal it, a job I can't/dont want to do and dont want to pay a boatyard for. Obviously this is preferred, but is it required? Keel bolts look fine to me. Does anyone have experience with this and can determine from pictures which job is needed. It seems like boatyards I'm talking to are just guessing on what will solve it, so resort to rebedding the entire keel for liability. I think that removing the wood in the keel stub, tightening the keel bolts, grinding down and resealing the outside will get rid of this for good, or at least make it the every other year job that catalina owners suffer from. It definitely looks like the previous owners have attempted these resealing repairs before. Any advice or previous knowledge is appreciated!

Attachment 273682 Attachment 273683
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Years ago I owned a catalina 27 and had some water (salt ) in the keel well
I decided to tighten the bolts 3 of them broke off(completely rotted) so I put in 6new bolts without dropping the keel New holes left the remainder of keel bolts
Drilled 2 pilot holes above the keel base, port, starboard, level and pushed through a strait 6mm rod , now i had a reference inside and out that I could measure from
Drilled 6 new holes well within the width of the keel and as plumb as pos
Some 10 inches below the keel junction (on the outside I drilled horizontal holes to meet up with the 6 holes I drilled from the inside( 9 inches deep)
Met every single hole with some adjustments test fitted and pushed in 12 mm ss 316 threaded rods in bedding compound, put washer and nut on all on the outside and tightened all of them without any problem to speck
filled the outside holes, needless to say every thing was well within the outside contours of the keel shape
Problem solved I consider the rest as cosmetic

[Searles]

If the keel bolts are ok ,I would be more concerned with the cracking at the turn of the bilge this indicates flexing at the top of the keel stub ,these boats are now getting to the time for major maintenance ,I would investigate much more .⚓️⛵️

[Greatest Lakes]

Originally Posted by c.K.

Years ago I owned a catalina 27 and had some water (salt ) in the keel well
I decided to tighten the bolts 3 of them broke off(completely rotted) so I put in 6new bolts without dropping the keel New holes left the remainder of keel bolts
Drilled 2 pilot holes above the keel base, port, starboard, level and pushed through a strait 6mm rod , now i had a reference inside and out that I could measure from
Drilled 6 new holes well within the width of the keel and as plumb as pos
Some 10 inches below the keel junction (on the outside I drilled horizontal holes to meet up with the 6 holes I drilled from the inside( 9 inches deep)
Met every single hole with some adjustments test fitted and pushed in 12 mm ss 316 threaded rods in bedding compound, put washer and nut on all on the outside and tightened all of them without any problem to speck
filled the outside holes, needless to say every thing was well within the outside contours of the keel shape
Problem solved I consider the rest as cosmetic

Good repair.

Depending on if everything is solid and tight or not, the cracks may be superficial. Clean up the cracked area and use the fast drying 3m sealant, it doesn't run very much, if at all. The regular cure stuff with the blue label will sag. In either case, removing some paint and old bedding for a better look wouldn't be a bad idea.

[chowdan]

I haven't read all of the posts here except the comment.

The cracks in the keel stub/bilge turn are far more concerning than the smile IMO. If those cracks are in the laminate and not just in the filler(only grinding the paint away will tell the answer), you have a much larger job on your hand. It would be foolish and unsafe to take this boat out in any weather if it goes into laminates.

Personally, unless it was damn near free I would walk from this boat unless the owner was willing to let you grind it down to find out. Wouldn't take much effort but isn't a pleasant job. It can get very expensive quickly if you need to bring in outside help let alone have to be hauled for a few months.


My boat is not a Catalina, however, my keep had small 'cracks' in the joint - essentially the 'Smile' that you are talking about. I tackled it by making sure the bolts were tightened properly, and with a Dremel I was able to remove the filler(Bondo it appeared - do not use bondo, it absorbs water easily). I used 4200 to fill in the gap and made sure it was smooth. G flex would work but I didn't have any but had 4200.

A friend of mine and I also took a grinder and ground down 3-4" on either side of the joint(can't remember) to remove any paint and get down to a workable surface and laid up 6 or so layers of glass(epoxy based). I was able to fair it pretty smooth though time constraints did limit me from getting it perfect.

This was back in mid 2018 and was at the recommendation of my friend who owns a very successful glassing business. He has been experimenting on a couple clients boats with this and so far as long as structurally the keel is stable and not loose, this has been the best answer. At the time he's done this to 10 or so boats excluding mine, and over 15 years of monitoring and working on them, the glass job has yet to delaminate(sign of movement). My 2022 haul out also showed zero signs of delamination as well and my routine dive I do on my boat(every 2 months in winter, 1x a week in summer) seems to show everything is holding well

[capt jgw]

Unfortunately looking at the bolt tops in the bilge doesn't tell you much. That's not where they fail, it's down in the part buried in the fiberglass (and maybe plywood). They can look fine from the top and be badly compromised down below, or vice versa. As mentioned earlier if you try to tighten them and they break off in your hand, you know you have a problem. Been there.
What I don't see in the photos is rust leaking down from the joint. Assuming a lead keel the only things in there that can rust are the bolts. If you see that, run away. With an iron keel that may be what's rusting, but that needs to be addressed too. The only way to know is to drop the keel. I did it on my Columbia 36, it wasn't too bad a job.

[davil]

sorry, could not help myself

reminded me of Dirty Harry, Clint Eastwood

" Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?”