Ketch rig - utilizing its full potential

[s/v Jedi]

Christian,

It must be balanced. This might mean that the roached main has a shorter luff than the original sail. It can still have the same surface area and the center of effort is lowered. That's why I wrote that even the mast might be lowered in some cases. It's actually more extreme than you think: the new main might have less surface area than the old sail and still perform much better.

I wouldn't quickly consider moving the mast position, but I wouldn't put a ban on it either. Changing a stay or spreader is much easier though. Just look at the options with an open mind and compare cost to benefit and budget.

Mega-dollar high tech racers... ha! Any racer 50'+ will show us her behind when sailing upwind, but broad-reaching we might have a surprise. Sundeers are cruisers however and certainly not mega-dollar as anyone can see on yacht-world. High-volume production yachts of the same size are more $$ We meet cruisers with 50 footers that go in shock when we tell them what we paid for Jedi... they paid multiples sometimes.

Yawls: mizzen vs rudderpost; that's what I thought too but "they" made it clear to me that this is only true for older designs; newer yawls always have the rudderpost aft of the mizzen. Performance... I've seen a yawl doing very good in the Carriacou Regatta and it was the eye catcher for most spectators. Even if the mizzen is nothing more than a flap for the main for these designs, it is still a helpful sail.

How about a schooner, is that better than a ketch?

cheers,
Nick.

[s/v Jedi]

Heikki,

Very nice boat. I even think you can get rid of the triatic stay without changing anything else, maybe just upgrade the mizzen forestays to dyform wire or 1 size up 1x19. I think you would need 7mm and this is assuming they go to the mast-head like I think I see on the photo.

Do you have an auto-pilot? A nice balancing test is to put the boat on a tack with the pilot on and change trim/reefs/jib until rudder-angle is or almost is 0 degrees. Now steer by hand and get the feeling for that trim. After that you do the tests I proposed before and keep comparing the feeling with that baseline.

If you have genoa's instead of yankees: test how much wind you need for staysail without genoa. Ask a sailmaker how much change can be expected when making a somewhat bigger, high aspect staysail. It is very nice to be able to use just staysail from 22-25 knots and up. It's futher aft so less water in the sail and it's center of gravity is much lower stan a furled genoa so less heel and more drive.

ciao!
Nick.

[Heikki]

Hello Nick,
I am afraid the photo I posted really is fairly bad. It is impossible to see what is actually a rope and what is a wire. I assume that what looks like a mizzen forestay in the photo, is actually a halyard for mizzen staysail (which we do not have) that is just fixed to the side rail.

Both the main and mizzen have a partly a similar arrangement in terms of the shrouds. With both masts, there are four stays/shrouds attached just below the lower spreaders. On the deck, they go to the sides of the boat on both sides of the masts, i.e., the masts stand in the middle of those four stays. On the main masts the diameter of those stays is 10mm and on mizzen 7mm.

On the mizzen, there is one pair of aft swept spreaders with one pair of shrouds. Excluding a thinner triatic stay, all shrouds of the mizzen are of 7mm wire.

In addition, the main has two sets of shrouds both coming straight down to the sides. The spreaders have a 180 degree angle. Upper shrouds are 10mm and lower shroud (coming from the upper spreaders) are 7mm in diameter. The main has two forestays, two double backstays + running backstays which are only to provide additional support, not to bend the mast.

Even though the lower stays of the mizzen have a pretty good forward angle, I am afraid they are attached too low for the triatic stay to be removed. Sure enough, I could add front stays that would come down from the top of the mizzen. I do not like the idea of the masts being attached. Should it turn to the worst, I’d rather loose just a one mast and not both of them.

I do have an autopilot. I am looking forward to do the test as you suggested. Unfortunately, it will have to wait for another two months because of the ice. We are still in the middle of the winter here.

[Christian Van H]

Jeez Jedi! Sundeer owners are always so damn TECHNICAL! It comes from memorizing their bible, The Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia! (wait, I memorized that too...) As for the Triatic stay...EVERYONE knows its main purpose is to drag down the good stick should the other fail for any reason! I can say this, because I have one too!

I really like your advice on testing trim with the autopilot. Dashew would be proud!!!

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Christian Van H

Jeez Jedi! Sundeer owners are always so damn TECHNICAL! It comes from memorizing their bible, The Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia! (wait, I memorized that too...)

:-) I can assure you that I met a couple who were not. The problem with our bible is that I memorized it before buying Jedi and have been carrying it around for 6 years now without using it. Many things I write might have their source in a good book but I remember them because I did them myself and know it worked. I think my approach to things is very much like every ex-engineer sailor does it. The difference is that I like forums and have the time to write, especially now that my wife broke her ankle badly and we're stuck here ;-)

As for the Triatic stay...EVERYONE knows its main purpose is to drag down the good stick should the other fail for any reason! I can say this, because I have one too!

Hmm. Reading Heikki's post, it sounds like his mizzen just has 4 lowers and the triatic. But that can't be because there's a set of spreaders so capshrouds must be there too. Heikki: any more, like a backstay?

I really like your advice on testing trim with the autopilot. Dashew would be proud!!!

Is that in The Book? I can't believe that but take your word for it. I do know that the recording of rudder-angle is in many books about trim, but never the lazy method with autopilot which is very likely my own variant of it ha ha!

BTW, most of the rigging stuff I learned from the rigger who took me under his wings while replacing it all on Jedi. He was Swedish! Can recommend him: Jonas, Trinidad Rigging at Peake's yard. Much better than the Budget Rigging club when I was there in 2004/2005. The book he had me buy and study was written by a Norwegian I think... Seems like Fin Heikki is in the squeeze ;-)

ciao!
Nick.

[s/v Jedi]

Sorry, I can't help myself and have to post this. The following is part of an interview of Steve Dashew, by Brion Toss (the rigger): (about balanced sailplan)

"
The wind was a steady seven and a half. We were close-reaching. A smooth, uneventful nine knots through the water.

Steve left the wheel and gave me a tour of the deck,
[...]
He went on for a while about bow entry angle, beam/length ratio, and mast compression. I nodded, looked aft, and said, "I don't recall your turning on the autopilot."

"Oh, my goodness, we forgot to steer."

And indeed the whole time this skinny, short-keeled (6'2", fully loaded) dart had been easing through a 3' to 4' sea, absolutely unattended, straight as a rail, even in puffs. Steve explained this in terms of a balanced canoe body, somehow relating this to battery stowage, 3" of foam insulation inside the hull, and the scantlings of the doghouse. Because the breeze was rising we did turn on the autopilot as our conversation continued. I must confess that I missed some of Mr. Dashew's subsequent points; I was watching the autopilot, waiting for the LED to blink to show that the unit was working. Mostly it stayed dark.
"

The complete interview is here: Brion Toss Yacht Riggers Fairleads Newsletter

Jedi (Sundeer 64) is an evolution of the original Sundeer, and we are like in between Sundeer and Beowulf. We have the balast tanks like Beowulf, but put fresh water in them, not seawater. We also have the bowsprit for the spi, planing capability, no backstays etc. The original Sundeer was adapted to some of these changes, but not all. We saw it in Cartagena, Colombia a year ago... for sale!!

ciao!
Nick.

[Christian Van H]

Jedi, I was just joking about the Autopilot trim thing.It's the ONE thing not in the book! Heikki and I have similar rigging; forestay, caps, twin backstays and four lowers on the main, cap and four lowers on the mizzen with a triatic in between. I have a mizzen staysail, but have never flown it yet. I would love an asymmetrical, but I do worry about handling short handed. Do you both have spinnaker or downwind poles ready to go? Jib with a pole and jigger sounds like a great trades rig...

BTW, The Dashews must be one of the most prodigious couples the world has ever known. I doubt I could EVER complete a book as comprehensive as the "Bible", let alone a newsletter, a ton of other tomes, and a full time yacht design and construction company!!!!! Amazing!

[s/v Jedi]

We never use the spi's because we're always sailing upwind.... we had some downwind sails... 30-45 knots winds, holding on for dear life so no interest in spi's although Dashew would be pulling them out of the sail locker by bundles ;-)

ciao!
Nick.

[Heikki]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Hmm. Reading Heikki's post, it sounds like his mizzen just has 4 lowers and the triatic. But that can't be because there's a set of spreaders so capshrouds must be there too. Heikki: any more, like a backstay?

Sorry for my English and imprecise expressions. When talking about rigging details, I have hard time using the correct and precise expressions even in my own language. Anyway, the mizzen has triatic, capshrouds (that is, just one shroud on each side coming from the top of the mast) via one pair of aft swept spreaders, and four lower shrouds, no backstay. Just like Christian has on his vessel.

I just wonder if the rigging on Christian's Challenger was made by Selden like the one in our Stormwind?

We are also sailing shorthanded, so we do not have a spinnaker even though we have all the bits and pieces for it in place. To move all the 12 metric tons we have, the sail would have to be of enormous size generating enormous powers. I/we really are afraid to deal with it should we for some reason have it up when the wind turns too gusty or suddenly starts shifting too much. We are, however, considering an asymmetric with a snuffer. We have a smaller planing sloop for racing (currently for sale) and we are very pleased on how the snuffer works on that one.

[Christian Van H]

Lefeil rig here Heikki. My boat is vintage 1975. I was twelve when she was built. Couldn't possibly have afforded her back then with my paper route...

We feel much the same about spinnaker gear, but many do use them on long downwind passages...

BTW, Heikki your english is AMAZINGLY good! I would NEVER have guessed you spoke another language. Many American posters on this site have a MUCH harder time with their NATIVE tongue!

[CharlieCobra]

A Southern ketch owner here. I sailed Oh Joy in some serious stuff, using different combination's of sails and am impressed with the adaptability of the Yawl rig. I had everything up in winds of up to 40 knots before reefing without any real issues, just a wild ride. I've also flown just the Staysail offwind in 50+ for a very fast yet comfortable ride. The Mizzen Staysail is an interesting, if limited, sail but if offwind, I prefer the Asymmetrical Spinnaker. Oh Joy is a 1961 Knutson yawl custom (the sprit and staysail stay weren't normal).





Yes, I know the fenders got knocked off by green water in that last shot. I just didn't wanna send anybody out in that to stow them since we were a half hour from flatter water.

[Christian Van H]

God, what a beautiful yacht! Thank you Charlie for posting those. Is it just me, or are Ketches and Yawls just prettier than everything else...

Something else funny; I have always wanted a ketch, but NEVER ever want a schooner. Explain that one!

[Patrick_DeepPlaya]

When I initially started looking for my boat, I was dead set against a ketch (or any multi-mast) because I didn't want the extra gear to maintain, but the more I looked the more I just fell in love with them. One of my other guiding principles was that this boat is going to piss you off sometimes, you better lover it. Love won out over my utilitarian ideals and I bouth a Pearson 424.

She's the best and we love her!

[Christian Van H]

OK Patrick...you are too much! DEEP PLAYA? Are you kidding? Very, very funny! The Pearson 424 is an awesome boat. Oh, and check out his website guys...REALLY nice site!

[Patrick_DeepPlaya]

Yep, that's the name. ;-)

Thanks for the complement on the site.