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slippers · 28-01-2011, 15:59

as an owner of a ketch and occasional racer,i will offer my observations,
in light airs upwind sloop is quicker, i put this down to the fact that the jib does most of the work and the ketch has a much shorter foil,in heavy wind when the sloops need to reef, this levels the field, ketches have shorter masts with less heeling moment and therefore reef later,off the wind i carry a small mizzen staysail,though over 30knt of breeze and the helm protests,but performance in spades, obviously comparisons have to be laid with similar types of boat,mine is a heavy cruising boat with a very comfortable deck saloon, i,m not aware of any pure racing ketches so comparisons against racing sloops would be unfair.what i can say is i race mine against all kinds of mainly cruising boats and remain competitive, and in stronger winds do quite well thanks. i find it very easy to manage sailing mostly singlehanded, but i must admit to thinking about adding more sail in the form another jib,cutter ketch hmmm .my previous boats were sloops but i,m glad i made the change, no regrets, why dont they make them anymore?

capnorv · 28-01-2011, 16:22

They don't make Ketches anymore because they don't sail to windward as well or as fast and there is no market to sell to. That said, I'm begining to love our new (to us) Ketch.

simonmd · 28-01-2011, 16:44

Not true to say they don't make them anymore, rather they don't make small ones anymore. In days gone by, most leasure craft over 30ft were ketch rigged because the sails, etc. would be too big and heavy to opperate single/short handed if the mainsail area was confined to one big sail. Since the 80's however, the introduction of sails that have become stronger and lighter and electric winches, etc. has made the sloop rig much easier to handle. This not only gave better windward performance but freed up deck space and obviously cut the number of lines and masts in half.

This ment that the vast majority of ketches in the mass market, 30-50ft, have been wiped out but over 50ft you can still find them in production as they still make sence for larger yachts.

Coachbolt61 · 28-01-2011, 16:51

Speaking of ketches, do you really need a triatic stay? Mine doesn't have one and I am hesitant in putting mizzen up and bending the big sticky thing. I have seen one other ketch without one in the marina. I only have braces up to the spreaders, nothing else forward of the mast. Smiles

bob perry · 29-01-2011, 08:52

Coach:'
It depends upon how far your forward lowers go forward. I presume you have some kind for forward shroud.

Mark Johnson · 29-01-2011, 10:36

If you are not talking about reefing ease or balance issues, but which is the more efficient rig, it is the sloop.

Almost all Searunners, like mine, were originally designed to be sailed as cutters, except in very light air. I started my project after the building craze was over, and by that time, the boat's co designer, John Marples had sailed his for 10 years, and suggested our current rig. It has a taller mast and is rigged as a cutter, but always sailed as a sloop. The roller furling headsail, on a taller mast, is similar in area to the old Genny, but being a Lapper with a high clew, we can see under it easily, and need no sheet lead adjustments as we roll some of it up.

At around 30 knots, we no longer "roll in a bit more headsail", buy roll it ALL in, reef the main, and raise the staysail. Then we can sail into the 30s or even 40s, and if needs be, totally strike the main, as the boat will balance well without it. It is a great rig!

Which rig is best, prettiest, easiest to handle, etc. is highly debatable. Which rig is the most efficient sailing in light air, is not debatable at all. Between the cutter, sloop, or ketch... It's the SLOOP!

Mark

zeehag · 29-01-2011, 11:00

sloops are fast and a lot of work in a sea.same with cutters. i sailed many different rigs-- you get there fastest with a slooop or cutter, and most comfortably in a ketch. is easier to balance the boat and handle heavier seas in a ketch-- btdt.

Curmudgeon · 29-01-2011, 17:39

Yes, the ability to balance a ketch with only "jib and jigger" is a real advantage.

**Jim Cate** · 29-01-2011, 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeehag

sloops are fast and a lot of work in a sea.same with cutters. i sailed many different rigs-- you get there fastest with a slooop or cutter, and most comfortably in a ketch. is easier to balance the boat and handle heavier seas in a ketch-- btdt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Yes, the ability to balance a ketch with only "jib and jigger" is a real advantage.

OK, someone has gotta do it: Just exactly why is it easier to balance a ketch with the infamous "Jib and Jigger" ? Why is a ketch more comfortable than a sloop or cutter? Why can a ketch handle heavier seas than a sloop ?

We get this sort of folk wisdom repeated all the time here on CF, without anything to back up the statements.

Taking the statements in order, here are my thoughts:

Yes, some ketches do balance well with J&J sail plans. All three of the sloops that Ann and I have cruised in sailed well enough under main alone, jib alone or (when fitted) staysail alone. The balance was good enough that wind vanes or autopilots could continue to drive the boat (cruising, remember?) So, where's the big advantage?

Ketch supporters often cite the ability to just drop the main and continue on with (vastly) less sail area. OK, you can do the same in a sloop should it be necessary, and continue on as well. But in many cases dropping the main reduces the sail area too much, and one is better off to reef the main on either type of rig, and I see no difference in the work required.

Now the comfort factor -- comfort at sea has much more to do with hull design than the sail rig. There are plenty of ketches that wallow like pigs, sail at excessive heel angles, hobby-horse... and there are plenty of sloops and cutters that do the same. I don't think that the sail plan has such a big influence on sea kindliness while hull shape and weight distribution do.

And I can see no magic effect of a divided rig making a yacht handle big seas better. Again, hull shape, freeboard, and weight distribution are factors that alter a boat's ability to work through seas, not the sail plan.

And on the other side of the coin, no reason to say that sloops/cutters are always faster than ketches. I seem to remember that in the early days of the Whitbread races, big ketches like Steinlager were often victorious over their single masted opponents. And from memory again, wasn't that breakthrough boat Windward Passage a ketch? I remember her roaring past us on SF bay flying spinnakers from both masts... Wow, was she a sight to behold! (And arguably the fastest yacht around at the time).

So, what I reckon you guys may be getting at is that these days ketch rigs are more likely to be fitted on more traditional hull shapes, and that you believe that these hull shapes offer great benefits. I'm not convinced myself, but I'll not argue with you. But for the newbie asking about the benefits of each rig, lets only talk about the rigs, not the whole boat -- that's too big a subject!

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Towlers Bay, NSW, Oz

Curmudgeon · 29-01-2011, 18:54

I can only give anecdotal evidence. I sometimes sail with a friend on his Cheoy Lee Herreschoff ketch (31 ft.) IMHO she's easier to handle in 20+ knots than my 30 ft. cutter with staysail and a reefed main. For starters, there is no need to reef with the ketch, and she balances with less trimming, fiddling and tinkering.

Alaska JD · 29-01-2011, 19:12

Thanks Jim - that was very helpful to us newbies

**boatman61** · 29-01-2011, 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

I can only give anecdotal evidence. I sometimes sail with a friend on his Cheoy Lee Herreschoff ketch (31 ft.) IMHO she's easier to handle in 20+ knots than my 30 ft. cutter with staysail and a reefed main. For starters, there is no need to reef with the ketch, and she balances with less trimming, fiddling and tinkering.

And Ketches have kicked my Sloop butt a coupla times..... once a Choey Lee Clipper by 1hr... the Ba*#*rd....
But then... I'm not a sailor...