Ketchs vs Sloops

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Now where a ketch is concerned, you run into the problem of the tremendous aerodynamic drag of the second mast, the sails blanketing each other and feeding each other disturbed air, all that extra rigging, plus all that crap which is so convenient to mount on the mizzen . I would not want to be sailing, or even motoring off a lee shore in storm in most ketches, even good modern ones. In this situation, I think the advantages in balance and choice of sail plan and so forth are completely lost to all that windage and drag.

Okay, windage & drag, let's look at that:

1. Tremendous drag of the 2nd mast; Why tremendous? The mizzen mast (that's what we ketch sailors call it ;-) has a smaller diameter profile than the main mast, so it is actually less drag than the main mast on ketch or sloop. Also, the main mast of a ketch will be a smaller diameter than the main mast of a sloop.
Furthermore, the mast of the sloop is much higher and the higher we go up, the more wind speed we get, increasing the drag factor dramatically. The windage factor will be much smaller than you think and might even be equal to that of a sloop.
A big difference in windage and drag will be a in-mast furling system.

2. Sails blanketing each other; when sailing upwind? no.

3. Sails feeding each other disturbed air; the only difference will be disturbed air that the mizzen sail is in. Interaction between jib and main is like on a sloop and between jib and mizzen there's enough separation, so we're just talking about the main to mizzen influence. Yes, on ketches shorter than 50' this becomes a noticeable factor, which is the primary reason the cutter will outperform the ketch like I stated in my earlier post. Ketches of 50' and up have enough separation to minimize that factor enough so that for heavy weather conditions it is not an issue anymore. In light weather this is the primary reason that a sloop will outperform a ketch upwind regardless of boat length.

4. Extra rigging; same as extra mast above.

5. crap mounted on mizzen; oh, you're gonna be sorry you brought this one up ;-) Explain me why a radar reflector or radar scanner mounted on a mizzen produces more drag than when mounted on the mast of a sloop? My observation is that most sloops find that it is so inconvenient to mount that on the mast, that they erect a 2nd mast for just that crap (calling it a radar post) and now they have two masts like a ketch but can't fly any sails of that second mast so that it is pure drag without any contribution to sailing performance. No, you just touched one of the big advantages of a ketch and a sloop will do much worse or equal at best.
Or, you could reason that sloops don't have that "crap"? The word "crap" seems to implicate that. For boats that don't need this crap because of the way they are used, I am sure that ketch owners will like to save the expense just as much as sloop sailors.

So, the factors that stand are the ones which make a sloop beat a ketch in light weather on upwind performance. In heavy weather, the advantages of a ketch start outweighing these factors and at 40' of boat length and up, the ketch will outperform the sloop in storm conditions. With "outperform" I do not mean sail faster, because that's not what we are talking about, I mean it will provide a safer and more comfortable platform than the sloop, with better tools to handle the conditions. At that 40', a cutter will still outperform both ketch and sloop in that same sense.

A full keel sloop, an Island Packet say, with old-fashioned underbody, will be hairier off a lee shore than any modern cutter or even ketch.

Yes, but that is why we only compare ketch vs sloop vs cutter for the same hull shape, i.e. the only difference is the rig.

A really good ketch, like your Sundeer, with her long waterline, narrow beam, widely spaced masts (specially designed to cure the blanketing disease of ketches, but I'm sure you know that), and efficient underbody, will outperform 99% of the sloops out there on any point of sail, not to mention in any weather.

Ah, I yesterday posted that I leave Jedi out of the comparison in an attempt to sidestep this. But I think that in light weather, every sloop with the same waterline length will beat us upwind. A Sundeer isn't a magical design and it will have to yield to laws of nature just like all other ketches. The main difference with other cruising designs is it's very light displacement and it's long waterline (boat is 64', waterline is 64'). Normally, only racers have those features. When we would remove all the cruising stuff like heavy handholds, railings etc. and replace the rig with a racing rig, we would convert to a racer (the hull shape and weight is that of a racer of 15 years ago).

I'm convinced, by the way, that this distorts your ideas a little bit about ketches in general. Like thinking that all cars are like Ferraris. All cars, as it turns out, are not Ferraris, and all ketches are not Sundeers.

Actually, I think I can deal with that pretty good. But I do not have a 30' 20 ton 30 years old ketch in mind either of course (which must be what some sloop-owners have in mind when they describe the differences ;-). No, what I actually have in mind for a ketch is a 52' (or whatever length it is) French built Amel Super Maramu. Here we have a modern designed, mass produced > 50' ketch that is designed to sail anywhere in any weather and available at a reasonable price.
For a cutter, I have a Dutch built 47' Trintella (now built by Moody I think?) or a Contest or Koopmans in mind. These are more expensive (not the Koopmans may be) than the 52' Amel but comparably equipped for off shore heavy weather sailing.
For a sloop, I think about your Moody to be honest ;-) There are many sloops out there but I compare with something that is better equipped for heavy weather off shore sailing than a Bavaria or Beneteau and less expensive than a Swan.

ciao!
Nick.

[Dockhead]

This is fun. I'm sorry we're not doing this over a beer, instead of through the Internet.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Okay, windage & drag, let's look at that:

1. Tremendous drag of the 2nd mast; Why tremendous? The mizzen mast (that's what we ketch sailors call it ;-) has a smaller diameter profile than the main mast, so it is actually less drag than the main mast on ketch or sloop. Also, the main mast of a ketch will be a smaller diameter than the main mast of a sloop.
Furthermore, the mast of the sloop is much higher and the higher we go up, the more wind speed we get, increasing the drag factor dramatically. The windage factor will be much smaller than you think and might even be equal to that of a sloop.
A big difference in windage and drag will be a in-mast furling system.

Well, we have gone beyond the edge of my concrete expertise. I love engineering, but I am not an engineer, and much less an aerodynamicist. So I can only repeat what I have learned, in places like this:

diffrent rigs? (schooner, ketch, cutter, sloop) - SailNet Community

The drag is much higher with a ketch, as I have been taught, because for a given amount of sail area you have more mast and much more rigging. A sloop (and to a lesser degree, a cutter) has a lower proportion of aerodynamically dragging stuff up in the breeze, to sail area. If you look at the sail plans of ketch and sloop next to each other, I think you will see that this is obvious.

Another thing I don't think I mentioned is that a taller rig has two other advantages for performance (if not stability) -- (a) stronger wind up higher, and (b) longer luff length per unit of sail area, key to upwind performance.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

2. Sails blanketing each other; when sailing upwind? no.

According to what I have been taught -- on a ketch, main blankets mizzen, seriously degrading its performance, upwind, and vice versa downwind, with only beamish reach allowing main and mizzen to operate more or less efficiently. This is less of a problem when masts are widely spaced, but still an inherent ketch problem. AFAIK.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

3. Sails feeding each other disturbed air; the only difference will be disturbed air that the mizzen sail is in. Interaction between jib and main is like on a sloop and between jib and mizzen there's enough separation, so we're just talking about the main to mizzen influence. Yes, on ketches shorter than 50' this becomes a noticeable factor, which is the primary reason the cutter will outperform the ketch like I stated in my earlier post. Ketches of 50' and up have enough separation to minimize that factor enough so that for heavy weather conditions it is not an issue anymore. In light weather this is the primary reason that a sloop will outperform a ketch upwind regardless of boat length.

I don't think this problem ever goes away with a ketch, nor do I think that it is even reduced automatically on a ketch of 50+ feet. The rig has to be especially designed to reduce this effect, like a Sundeer. Amels are notoriously poor sailers upwind, for example.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

4. Extra rigging; same as extra mast above.

Well, but you've got proportionately more rigging per unit of sail area on a ketch. I can't agree with this and it is contrary to what the books say. Just add up the total length of all the stays, sheets, and so forth on a typical ketch, and compare that to a sloop of the same total sail area -- that's fairly obvious. The sloop packs in considerably more sail area for a given amount of rigging; it simply produces a much leaner and cleaner profile to the wind in all respects. And drag, and even more, turbulence, really degrade aerodynamic performance. It's just like a biplane compared to a monoplane, in aircraft design.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

5. crap mounted on mizzen; oh, you're gonna be sorry you brought this one up ;-) Explain me why a radar reflector or radar scanner mounted on a mizzen produces more drag than when mounted on the mast of a sloop? My observation is that most sloops find that it is so inconvenient to mount that on the mast, that they erect a 2nd mast for just that crap (calling it a radar post) and now they have two masts like a ketch but can't fly any sails of that second mast so that it is pure drag without any contribution to sailing performance. No, you just touched one of the big advantages of a ketch and a sloop will do much worse or equal at best.
Or, you could reason that sloops don't have that "crap"? The word "crap" seems to implicate that. For boats that don't need this crap because of the way they are used, I am sure that ketch owners will like to save the expense just as much as sloop sailors.

I was semi-joking here. You are right of course, in theory. I meant that the mizzen is so convenient for mounting stuff (I get mizzen-envy, every time I try to think of a place to mount the next antenna), that ketches are likely to have a bunch more of it.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

So, the factors that stand are the ones which make a sloop beat a ketch in light weather on upwind performance. In heavy weather, the advantages of a ketch start outweighing these factors and at 40' of boat length and up, the ketch will outperform the sloop in storm conditions. With "outperform" I do not mean sail faster, because that's not what we are talking about, I mean it will provide a safer and more comfortable platform than the sloop, with better tools to handle the conditions. At that 40', a cutter will still outperform both ketch and sloop in that same sense.

I also do not mean "sail faster", as the only criterion of "performance". Speed is of great importance, but I had more in mind tacking angle, so crucially important to making progress upwind and getting off a lee shore. Here a sloop will always be better than ketch or cutter if all the underbodies and sail areas are identical, and if you assume that the sloop has got just the right sails up for the conditions, and this is true heavy weather or light. But as we discussed, that assumption is hypothetical -- it's easier to get the right sails up, and therefore more likely that you will have them up, in a cutter, and even more so in a ketch.

Yes, a sloop is a less safe and less comfortable platform, and has less good tools to handle the conditions. You're exactly right. But the price for that safety, comfort, and tools, is performance.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Ah, I yesterday posted that I leave Jedi out of the comparison in an attempt to sidestep this. But I think that in light weather, every sloop with the same waterline length will beat us upwind. A Sundeer isn't a magical design and it will have to yield to laws of nature just like all other ketches. The main difference with other cruising designs is it's very light displacement and it's long waterline (boat is 64', waterline is 64'). Normally, only racers have those features. When we would remove all the cruising stuff like heavy handholds, railings etc. and replace the rig with a racing rig, we would convert to a racer (the hull shape and weight is that of a racer of 15 years ago).

The Sundeer is an ingenious, unusual and wonderful design. It is exactly what I would choose if I were not forced to work still to support my sailing addiction, and if I would therefore be doing a lot of transoceanic passage-making. The very high speed and weatherliness of the Sundeer, the easily-driven hull, all the delightful, eccentric, ingenious design details, respond exactly to my taste.

And what can you say about details like -- just to name one example -- no through hulls in the passenger section? A proper engine room, allowing most of the through hulls to be put behind a watertight bulkhead (and all the others behind another watertight bulkhead forward)? It's just genius. The boat is practically unsinkable. I love them.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Actually, I think I can deal with that pretty good. But I do not have a 30' 20 ton 30 years old ketch in mind either of course (which must be what some sloop-owners have in mind when they describe the differences ;-). No, what I actually have in mind for a ketch is a 52' (or whatever length it is) French built Amel Super Maramu. Here we have a modern designed, mass produced > 50' ketch that is designed to sail anywhere in any weather and available at a reasonable price.
For a cutter, I have a Dutch built 47' Trintella (now built by Moody I think?) or a Contest or Koopmans in mind. These are more expensive (not the Koopmans may be) than the 52' Amel but comparably equipped for off shore heavy weather sailing.
For a sloop, I think about your Moody to be honest ;-) There are many sloops out there but I compare with something that is better equipped for heavy weather off shore sailing than a Bavaria or Beneteau and less expensive than a Swan.

Well, we can agree on the Amel as a good representative of a modern ketch without all of the extraordinary performance features of the Sundeer. And the Amel is quite a tub. Easily sailed, stable, safe -- so far, so good. A good trade wind sailer. But very poor performance to weather, kind of illustrating all these points, in my opinion.

To be fair, my Moody is also not a completely representative cutter. While she is not nearly as nice overall as an Oyster or a Trintella (not as expensive either), she has an unusually high performance hull shape for a cruising boat, with a deep (7'6") bulb keel -- it's a Bill Dixon design, after all.

[Dockhead]

[QUOTE=Mango Bob;416878]

You've got to be kidding Dockhead? Lets take a closer look at your philosophy...

Let my hasten to say that it's not my philosophy. I am not an engineer and not knowledgeable enough. It's what the books say.

[QUOTE=Mango Bob;416878]

1)Simple matter of physics; a sailboats drag coefficient isn't measured so much from rigging as it is from freeboard!

True. We assume equal freeboard and we assume other things are equal. A sloop with a humongous freeboard is going to suck compared to a lean, low ketch, if they have the same underbodies. I regret the trend to higher and higher freeboard, in the constant search for condo-like interior volumes. One feature I dislike about my own boat is that the freeboard, while not that high, is higher than it needs to be. The Holman & Pye-designed Oysters are much nicer in that regard; the latest Humphry designs are unfortunately much worse.

[QUOTE=Mango Bob;416878]

2)Drive to windward; in your quote you neglected to mention the additional luff length of the mizzen which would put a ketch at an advantage over a sloop (though we both know the mizzen can't point as high to wind) and

If the mizzen were working in undisturbed air, this would be true. But it's not, going upwind where luff length matters. Besides that, it's working in air lower down which is moving more slowly. So I stand by my point, although maybe I should have said "effective luff length".

[QUOTE=Mango Bob;416878]

3) impossible to get off a lee shore even with the engine; You can't be serious? After your crack pipe has burned out, consider how large any ketches iron spinnaker can be... No personal digs intended...

You deleted the first part of that sentence -- "in some cases". But this is true, and more likely with a ketch with the same engine, than a sloop. Of course a big enough engine can overcome any windage but in reality many boats don't have a big enough engine.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Christian Van H

I've got 100HP of normally aspirated diesel in a 42' ketch. I can pull your anemic cutter off a lee shore anytime...you really shouldn't generalize..

We've mentioned a few times, that all this discussion concerns generalities, and that particular cases will be different. I'm glad you can pull yourself off a lee shore; ketches do need bigger engines.

Originally Posted by Christian Van H

A boat like Nicks Sundeer ketch can sail rings around you.

Very true. I've said that myself. The Sundeer is a gorgeous boat that makes me drool.

[daddle]

Jedi - The discussion has gone inane. Engineering and such out the window. Nobody designing a new boat would specify a ketch rig these days. When tall rigs became possible the ketch rig became obsolete. Only in your rare heavy weather conditions would there be an advantage - and the slower ketch rig does cause the boat to meet, not outrun, heavy weather. In all conditions but those in which tall bare poles are a disadvantage a taller sloop rig is far better use of resources. With furlers and lighter sailcloths the sail handling issue has become moot. Jedi would be faster, lighter, easier to sail, and easier to maintain as a sloop.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The drag is much higher with a ketch, as I have been taught, because for a given amount of sail area you have more mast and much more rigging. A sloop (and to a lesser degree, a cutter) has a lower proportion of aerodynamically dragging stuff up in the breeze, to sail area. If you look at the sail plans of ketch and sloop next to each other, I think you will see that this is obvious.

Yes, that is true. But there is much more attributing to drag and the biggest one is the sails them-self. If a sloop is sailing to windward in 50 knots of wind with a 130% genoa that is furled for 70% the drag of that sail alone will be more than all the extra drag of masts and rigging on a ketch. If that ketch has a full staysail set, the shape of that sail will also provide much more windward performance, while minimizing it's drag. In the end, in storm conditions, the sloop will probably, on average, still have a lower drag than the ketch, but the advantages of a ketch rig will quickly outweigh it's extra drag. Think of it's lower center of effort with it's sail plan, much ability to fly optimal sail shapes in those conditions, without the need to change sails etc.

Another thing I don't think I mentioned is that a taller rig has two other advantages for performance (if not stability) -- (a) stronger wind up higher, and (b) longer luff length per unit of sail area, key to upwind performance.

Yes, the taller rig reaches the stronger winds up there, but during storm conditions, this is a negative, not a positive. The sails are reefed anyway and the higher rig is just drag.
The big winner for a sloop is that single tall airfoil up in the air that is composed of the main + genoa combination. Nothing will beat that if done right. But that principle will only stand if the sloop actually shows that accurately shaped airfoil, meaning fully battened main and even battens in the jib. Older design sloops would become unbalanced with these sails, because these shapes were not possible when it was designed.
In mast furling etc. effectively kills that shape (can't do ellipse shape).

According to what I have been taught -- on a ketch, main blankets mizzen, seriously degrading its performance, upwind, and vice versa downwind, with only beamish reach allowing main and mizzen to operate more or less efficiently.

Well, upwind it isn't blanketed because the main isn't between the wind and the mizzen, but yes you get the disturbed flow pattern.
But in storm conditions, when the ketch just flies her mizzen and jib, the problem is completely avoided because the main is not there anymore. See how quickly things can turn around? ;-)
Now, the jib and mizzen combo on a ketch doesn't profit from the slot effect like on a sloop, but in storm conditions, the sloop doesn't either because the genoa will not be there anymore.

Amels are notoriously poor sailers upwind, for example.

I have seen Super Maramu's with fully battened main & mizzens going upwind like bats out of hell. The ones with all in-mast furling have killed their performance too but they favor the push-button experience over performance.. i.e.: a personal choice. I believe in-mast furling is standard so many owners are lured into that trap!

And drag, and even more, turbulence, really degrade aerodynamic performance.

All true but all not important in storm conditions. And remember that in a broad reach all that drag etc. is an advantage.

I also do not mean "sail faster", as the only criterion of "performance". Speed is of great importance, but I had more in mind tacking angle, so crucially important to making progress upwind and getting off a lee shore. Here a sloop will always be better than ketch or cutter if all the underbodies and sail areas are identical, and if you assume that the sloop has got just the right sails up for the conditions, and this is true heavy weather or light. But as we discussed, that assumption is hypothetical -- it's easier to get the right sails up, and therefore more likely that you will have them up, in a cutter, and even more so in a ketch.

See, I can accept 80% of this but it's the 20% that's just not true. For instance, when clawing off a lee shore in a storm, a sloop can't sail a better COG than a ketch. The sea state will just not allow that and the sloop must fall off and give up pointing performance to gain more power. At the same time it's advantage of a tall rig is worthless because the sails are reefed, the slot effect is gone and it's sail plan, when both fly the same surface area, has a much higher center of effort than the ketch.
It is the storm conditions that take most or all of the advantages away.

Yes, a sloop is a less safe and less comfortable platform, and has less good tools to handle the conditions. You're exactly right. But the price for that safety, comfort, and tools, is performance.

That is dependent on ones definition of performance. For me, safety and comfort are part of that definition... because I am not racing, I am cruising.

To be fair, my Moody is also not a completely representative cutter. While she is not nearly as nice overall as an Oyster or a Trintella (not as expensive either), she has an unusually high performance hull shape for a cruising boat, with a deep (7'6") bulb keel -- it's a Bill Dixon design, after all.

Oops you're a cutter (I thought sloop...) 7'6" is deep indeed. Would you believe that Jedi is just 6'2"??
Your boat is very nice and costs significantly more than a Sundeer... so why did you select the Moody?

ciao!
Nick.

[skipmac]

I have owned sloops, ketches and currently a cutter; 32' sloop, 65' ketch, 42' cutter so I guess I must agree with Nick's breakdown on boat size vs best rig.

Regardless of how easy the sails are to handle at some point one may have to remove them, bend them on or carry them about for some reason. On a boat the size of Jedi I would think no matter what the weight of the cloth that could be a fairly daunting task. Another reason why ketch rig is a better option for large boats, unless you sail with a large, paid crew.

Skip

Originally Posted by daddle

Jedi - The discussion has gone inane. Engineering and such out the window. Nobody designing a new boat would specify a ketch rig these days. When tall rigs became possible the ketch rig became obsolete. Only in your rare heavy weather conditions would there be an advantage - and the slower ketch rig does cause the boat to meet, not outrun, heavy weather. In all conditions but those in which tall bare poles are a disadvantage a taller sloop rig is far better use of resources. With furlers and lighter sailcloths the sail handling issue has become moot. Jedi would be faster, lighter, easier to sail, and easier to maintain as a sloop.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by daddle

Jedi - The discussion has gone inane. Engineering and such out the window. Nobody designing a new boat would specify a ketch rig these days. When tall rigs became possible the ketch rig became obsolete.

Sorry daddle but that just isn't true. You might be confusing ketches with schooners and yawls, which indeed do not have modern developments. There is actually more interest in modern ketch design today than 10 years ago.

Look here at modern Alubat & Tripp ketch designs:


ciao!
Nick.

[daddle]

Originally Posted by skipmac

I have owned sloops, ketches and currently a cutter; 32' sloop, 65' ketch, 42' cutter so I guess I must agree with Nick's breakdown on boat size vs best rig.

Regardless of how easy the sails are to handle at some point one may have to remove them, bend them on or carry them about for some reason. On a boat the size of Jedi I would think no matter what the weight of the cloth that could be a fairly daunting task. Another reason why ketch rig is a better option for large boats, unless you sail with a large, paid crew.

Skip

True enough, but the thread was claiming better performance without regard to the sacrifices that must be made for shorthanded sailing. I'd just use smaller sails on a taller simpler rig, however.

[s/v Jedi]

Looking at the photo's in my previous post: LOOK at that roller furling mizzen headsail of the Tripp design (2nd photo). That's the first time I see that and proof that there is indeed innovation with modern ketch design.
The 1st photo of the Alubat nicely shows how low the center of effort for the sail area is. One reef in both mizzen and main and a full staysail. Nice tri-radial cut sails and fully battened main & mizzen, flying near perfect foil shapes, in combination with the low center of effort reduce heel while still providing the surface area needed for speed. If this hull would be a sloop and make the same boat speed it would heel more.
Shame it has a triatic stay.

ciao!
Nick.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by daddle

True enough, but the thread was claiming better performance without regard to the sacrifices that must be made for shorthanded sailing. I'd just use smaller sails on a taller simpler rig, however.

No.... I claim better performance in storm conditions for a cruiser. Safety and comfort are part of the definition of performance. You keep hitting on the fact that a sloop is faster than a ketch in conditions at or under hull speed. I never argued that this fact isn't true (a fact is true per definition).

cheers,
Nick.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Your boat is very nice and costs significantly more than a Sundeer... so why did you select the Moody?

ciao!
Nick.

It's been an interesting conversation and I've learned a lot.

I bought our Moody kind of on the rebound. I wanted an Oyster 485 and even had a contract on one, but the examples I was looking at all turned out to be worn out and not worth the money asked. I got a picture of Oyster owners as very keen sailors who put on huge miles but mechanically uninclined, who treat their boats like cars -- use and abuse them hard until they start to fall apart, doing little to no maintenance or improvements, and then just sell them on. I adored and still adore the Holman & Pye designed O485 but I just couldn't find a decent one.

I wanted a good-sailing boat which would be comfortable enough to attract my wife a little more into the sport. She has dutifully gone sailing with me year after year but always hated water rationing and other spartan aspects of cruising on our old boat. So after all the Oyster deals fell through, I happened by chance on an M54 for sale which was bigger than what I wanted but which was extremely lightly used (180 total hours on the genset from new!), by a previous owner who even if he was not a keen sailor putting on millions of sea miles, was very loving and meticulous with maintenance. Never grounded her, never bashed into anything, never broke anything. I didn't like the boat so much at first; she is kind of fat and not such a thing of beauty as the Oyster, with less graceful lines and a few other drawbacks, but when I took her out for a sail for the first time I was hooked. She turned out to be quite a bit faster than the O485, and to boot with a wondeful rig -- 8 cockpit winches, 4 of them powered, very intelligent organizaation of all of the lines, excellently balanced, and just great to sail.

She has grown on me gradually; I even find myself starting to like the way she looks. The fact that she has a comfortable, voluminous interior has allowed me to use her for business entertaining (something I would have never dreamed of doing on our old boat). This is a win-win situation, because it gives me more days on the water while not neglecting my work.

That's basically the story. This season will tell whether I am able to entice my wife into it or not; if not then the boat is pretty much overkill for the kind of sailing I'm doing and I may sell her on and buy something smaller which I can single-hand.

So how did you end up with your Sundeer?

[s/v Jedi]

Well, I like the Moody 54 much better than the Oysters. We looked at an Oyster 55 but I could hardly touch the boom it was that high up (and I am over 6'6" tall!) so that was the end of that for me. The big Oysters we meet have just the crew aboard because the owners take a plane...

We have been searching for a Sundeer for 2 years but never found one listed. At some point I had a contract before me for building a custom 60 footer in aluminium in Holland. When I read it I found that they didn't include anything that I had requested so I got pissed and tossed it in the trash instead of signing it. Five minutes later I was on yachtworld.com and there she was ;-) A week later she was ours. My wife wants this as much or more than me (I selected her on that of course ;-)
I later found that most Dashew boats are sold through one broker and you need to put your name on his list to find one as they are often sold before getting listed. There's a big shortage of Sundeers because there are not many around.

We never sailed the Solent but plan to visit England with Jedi too and we have seen most of the east coast already (during our pre-retirement sailing from Holland) so we'll visit!

ciao!
Nick.

[Christian Van H]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I didn't like the boat so much at first; she is kind of fat and not such a thing of beauty as the Oyster, with less graceful lines and a few other drawbacks, but when I took her out for a sail for the first time I was hooked.

I find your boat to be quite beautiful, and she looks fast just sittin' there. Bet she sails like a sweetheart!

[Christian Van H]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Look here at modern Alubat & Tripp ketch designs:

They are some powerful looking boats! The ketch is obsolete? I dont know what they grow in SE Asia, but we all want some...