Largest boat couple can handle

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Haddock1

Now sail a Bavaria C57 with just myself and wife onboard for company.
I have a furling main and code Zero and a self taking foresail complimented with electric winches and bow & stern thrusters.

This sort of runs counter to my experience and what I recommend to folks --but I've never short-handed a boat over my current 43'.

How do you handle the code zero? Our Asym is in a sock, not a furler, but it's still a massive beast to pull out of the sail locker and get on the foredeck. Once there, rigging and hoisting is easy (electric winch). Getting it back down again requires a bit of effort (not much, but some) to keep it on deck as it comes down. And again, putting it away. Your boat is 30% larger than ours, so the sail is nearly double the area -- and probably 50% heavier cloth, so call it 3x as heavy as ours.

I'm genuinely curious. I've always viewed the Asym as one of the defining items that keep "max size" to under about 45'.

[CMH]

My wife and I are liveaboards in the sea of Cortez on an Irwin 65 and we handle her just fine. She’s long, beamy, and heavy, but the only issues we’ve had is finding an end-tie when we need to dock. And, we can be hauled out in La Paz, Guaymas, and Puerto Peñasco.
Chris on Blue Pearl

[Zanshin]

I have to admit I get a bit of a chuckle when I read posts that categorically state that a boat above some arbitrary 30-40 foot length cannot be single-handed or sailed well when short-handed; considering so many sailors do exactly that...

If the boat is well-found and set up correctly, then sailing short-handed in all but serious storm conditions is not a problem. I've done over 10K miles single-handed in my current Jeanneau 57. In-mast furling for the mainsail and roller furling for the genoa are my prerequisites for this, though.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Zanshin

I have to admit I get a bit of a chuckle when I read posts that categorically state that a boat above some arbitrary 30-40 foot length cannot be single-handed or sailed well when short-handed; considering so many sailors do exactly that...

If the boat is well-found and set up correctly, then sailing short-handed in all but serious storm conditions is not a problem. I've done over 10K miles single-handed in my current Jeanneau 57. In-mast furling for the mainsail and roller furling for the genoa are my prerequisites for this, though.

Single/short handing a boat comes in two flavors.


One is actually doing it -- that's relatively easy. Lots of technical solutions -- bow (and stern!) thruster, power winches, instruments at the helm (no need to sit a nav station), in-mast furling, etc. Judicious decisions about when to decide against using a dock/slip (high winds/currents can make line handling hard). The one "doing it" issue, as I mentioned a few posts ago, is handling an asym -- but that's hardly a "must-have." Some stuff, like coiling a long spring line, are quite challenging but can be handled (my wife at 5'4 can easily coil our longest spring line in her hands -- I doubt I can coil your spring line without flaking it on deck -- and even then my wife might have trouble putting it away).



The other is exceptions. Some are easily handled with money. For instance, I can take the main off the boat, fold it (sort of), put it in my car, and take it to a sail loft, alone. On your boat, even with my wife, that probably takes paid help. Failure of mitigating systems is a big challenge, but not insurmountable -- a jib can be sheeted by hand when the electrics fail, hard but possible.


Our hard upper limit of 47' (and target under 45') when were shopping was based on getting the main sail on and off. In fact, before I put an offer on out boat, I called a buddy with the same boat (43') and asked about it. His response was "I just did it this morning by myself."

[donradcliffe]

You can halve the weight of a mainsail by throwing money at it.

[Loredo]

Another Jeanneau 57 shorthanded sailor here. I can get the mainsail down and off the boat on my own. I can also take the 140% genoa up & down on my own. Where's the problem? Heavy, yes. But once one installes handheld remotes on the electric winches those jobs (everything) become much easier. BTW, I also have a code0 on a furler which I hoist and take down alone. Again, where's the problem? Electric winches, what when they fail?
Well, after 15 years with electric winches I've had ZERO problems with them.
Should one fail, I've got six electric ones in all. Can always do with the remaining ones. Should all electrics fail, well I still got several winch handles on the boat. Experience and the right equipment makes it possible to solo handle a lot more boat than most naysayers suggest.

[Superjunkman]

I guess to really get a good answer you’d have to define “Handle” and give a little more information about the couple. An older physically weak couple would be sucking wind trying to do anything on a 40’ sailboat quickly. Add to that if a labor saving piece of gear like a windless, winch, or furler malfunctioned. That’s a lot of sail areas to man handle. Docking can be tough as well.

[aberglas]

50 feet seems the sweet spot for blue water. Can be handled OK, comfortable, and hopefully better in (God forbid) a storm. Also lots of regulations come in over 15m.



Note the size is the cube of the length. So a 50 foot boat is about *twice* as big (and heavy) as 40 foot boat, which is about twice a 30 foot boat.

[Superjunkman]

Originally Posted by Zanshin

I have to admit I get a bit of a chuckle when I read posts that categorically state that a boat above some arbitrary 30-40 foot length cannot be single-handed or sailed well when short-handed; considering so many sailors do exactly that...

If the boat is well-found and set up correctly, then sailing short-handed in all but serious storm conditions is not a problem. I've done over 10K miles single-handed in my current Jeanneau 57. In-mast furling for the mainsail and roller furling for the genoa are my prerequisites for this, though.

I think you’re confusing can’t with shouldn’t. There are for sure people that could handle a well equipped large boat on a transoceanic voyage. There are far more people that can’t. Imagine what would happen if your in mast furling packed up on you. Maybe you could get that sail down and back up again. Most aged dottering old couples couldn’t. I threw out the 40’ figure because I know what it feels like to fend a 40’ boat off the dock when coming or going, what it feels like to get the main down, and what it’s like to do the same on a 30 footer. I’m 6’1” 220 and strong. Some fragile older couple is asking for trouble if they can’t control the boat when it all goes wrong.

I guess the “If things aren’t going well” caveat should’ve been in the original question.

[pbiJim]

Here's my short answer -

A 70' boat can be single handed by a competent captain, if the boat is well equipped, and he is in familiar territory, and he is in reasonably good conditions, with all systems working.

A 30' boat, with basic equipment, crewed by a couple of freshly minted ASA grads, in a bit of a blow, going into an unknown harbor, can be a roll of the dice. If you add in a failed system or two, or a rocky lee shore, or unmarked shallows, or darkness, or one of the crew being sea sick, the odds start to stack in the wrong direction pretty quickly.

There is no one-size-fits-all answer for the maximum size boat a couple can handle. The correct answer depends on a lot of things, including the skill set, experience level, physical ability, and temperament of the couple in question.

I've seen a rock-star quality sailor successfully single hand a 52' sloop through the night, down Hawks Channel, running from a hurricane, after putting the steering system back together with hand made parts that morning. I've also seen a couple get into trouble in a J-22 inside the ICW, less than a mile from their mooring.

Cruising can be very easy at times. It can also be very difficult at times. Weather is a serious wild card.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Loredo

Another Jeanneau 57 shorthanded sailor here. I can get the mainsail down and off the boat on my own. I can also take the 140% genoa up & down on my own. Where's the problem? Heavy, yes. But once one installes handheld remotes on the electric winches those jobs (everything) become much easier. BTW, I also have a code0 on a furler which I hoist and take down alone. Again, where's the problem? Electric winches, what when they fail?
Well, after 15 years with electric winches I've had ZERO problems with them.
Should one fail, I've got six electric ones in all. Can always do with the remaining ones. Should all electrics fail, well I still got several winch handles on the boat. Experience and the right equipment makes it possible to solo handle a lot more boat than most naysayers suggest.

My first thought was IMPRESSIVE! On doing some digging, still pretty impressive, but not quite as much as I thought. Still, I wouldn't want to arm-wrestle you for the bar tab.

My Saga43 main is 75 lbs (I just weighed it). If figured a boat almost half again longer, and 3 times as heavy, would have a main twice as big, and twice as thick, or 4 times the weight (300lbs). But it turns out that the main on a Jenneau 57 is not even 50% larger (460 SF vs 620 SF), so probably not much more than double the weight. Still getting a 150lb sail into a dinghy, or into a car, is impressive for a single guy. Even trying to pick it up (I can't get my arms around my folded main, but with a sail tie it's possible to pick it up).

My asym is much lighter, probably 50lb. Yours can't be much over 150lb. Still just dragging it along deck is a challenge (which is why it lives in a sun-proof bag on deck!).

Yes, electric winches are a huge plus. And they are highly reliable (I have two, a halyard winch and an anchor windlass, and they just work). But the challenges I refer to are the things that the winches don't help with.

One thing that surprised me digging into the numbers is the non-linearity (or more accurately, the failure to follow the expected curve, ie, dimensions are linear, areas are square, and weight is cube). The Saga 43 has a SA/DISP ratio of over 20, the Jenneau 57 is under 15. This is reflected in the Polar diagrams that show similar sailing performance, despite having nearly 50% more water line. The key takeaway is that there is a LOT more to sail area (and sail handling) than simply length.

[Don C L]

Pretty sure everything on Black Pearl is done with the push of a button. So, looks ok for a couple.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7pCkzz7IWY

[CSY Man]

Originally Posted by Superjunkman

I think you’re confusing can’t with shouldn’t. There are for sure people that could handle a well equipped large boat on a transoceanic voyage. There are far more people that can’t. Imagine what would happen if your in mast furling packed up on you. Maybe you could get that sail down and back up again. Most aged dottering old couples couldn’t. I threw out the 40’ figure because I know what it feels like to fend a 40’ boat off the dock when coming or going, what it feels like to get the main down, and what it’s like to do the same on a 30 footer. I’m 6’1” 220 and strong. Some fragile older couple is asking for trouble if they can’t control the boat when it all goes wrong.

I guess the “If things aren’t going well” caveat should’ve been in the original question.

This…
A great answer to the question..
An old fragile and retired couch-potato couple vs a young strong and confident professional husband/wife team racing couple.?

30’ boat vs 100’ boat.
Too many variables, no right answer.

(The maintenance/repair under duress aspect is just as important as the “Boat Handling” under sail or close to a dock/marina is)

[Fore and Aft]

I can't help but think about a slipping I was involved with last week. 24-foot yacht really a bit windy to be maneuvering around the marina. But it was a blow off berth and the travel lift crew were there to catch us when we got into the slings. All went well, if not a little more challenging than normal. I straight up told the owner if his boat was bigger there was no way I was getting involved with moving her. Anyway, at the same time I found out later in another marina close by a 40-foot yacht got into trouble while docking, bent a stanchion broke a navigation light and damaged some gelcoat.
Plus, to reiterate the point the skipper on the 24-footer had a broken leg in a cast so I did all the deck work while he steered.
Cheers

[Loredo]

sailingharry sez:

"still pretty impressive, but not quite as much as I thought."
Exactly the point I was trying to get through! I'm not saying it is as easy as on a 40 footer but it can be done. The other day I hoisted the genoa, alone.
The trick here is to have remote controlls on the halyard winches. To get the genoa from the cabin to the bow I use the spare main sail halyard. The remote in one hand, guiding the genoa in its bag with the other. Easy! Once at the shrouds, replace the halyard with the spare one for the genoa and bring it to the bow. Then hoisting the genoa sitting comfortably on the bow pulpit feeding the sail into the furler with one hand and the other hand on the remote. In all maybe a 10 minutes job, no sweating involved. BTW, I don't know exactly the weight of the genoa, must be +/- 170 lbs. Should I HAVE to, I think I can lift it on my own. Afterwards I'd need a few days off though. Wifey and I are in our early sixties, average shape, definitifely NOT superman & supergirl. Fourty years of sailing experience surely help a bit though. A point I find important to consider is the fact that a larger boat offers some features that a smaller one just can't. For example the large sail locker in the bow. Except for the genoa (Too large to fit easily through the hatch.) all the other sails are stored in there. No need to drag them along the boat. The working jib on the endless line furler is a heavy beast but with the help of a halyard and a remote controlled winch... see the trend?

Sailing a bigger boat in heavy weather solo / shorthanded? Where would the problem(s) be? Actually the bigger boat handles rough seas much better than the smaller one. I don't know if I would feel confident in myself enough to handle a still taller boat than mine though. Yet, I'm sure there are couples out there who handle 70 foot boats just as easyly as we do with our 57 though.