LOA vs. LWL: A design question

[MicHughV]

I hear what you say....there's racing and there's racing.

I've raced in several Abaco race week events.
They have the so-called " mothertub" class as well as the "racing" class.
The "mothertub" class was comprised of cruising sailboats that happened to be in the area at the time and handicap ratings were handed out willy nilly, well not quite will nilly, but no effort was made to fine tune this system, as this would have been impossible.

No matter, fun was had by all. Race management tried to make it "fair" by grouping boats in different length classes.

I've also raced along the US east coast in various races. Same thing. Cruising boats mixed in with racing boats, also a convoluted handicap rating system.

I've also raced to Bermuda. Ditto above.

And finally, I've raced in one boat competitions. Everybody has the same boat, but that doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

Mostly if a skipper complains about the rating system it's when he can't sail his boat to its rating. That is probably not because of the complex rating system (although sometines it can be).

Yes, that is always the big unknown, the skipper's ability. I've witnessed on several occasions the extreme lengths a skipper will go to, to have his handicap rating changed.

I don't race anymore. It got to be a bit too much for me.
I care little for a boat's handicap rating nowadays. I'm more interested in other things that contribute to my enjoyment of a boat, which is the point I was trying to make to the OP...a handicap rating is really of little value besides racing. Get the boat you like, and like the boat you get !!!

[Woodland Hills]

Just remember that you will be renting dock space based on the LOA.

[MicHughV]

Marina's have cottoned on the dealing with LOA for slip rental fees....
They will put a 40' boat into a 45' slip....but charge for the 45' slip......
If you have a long sprit....or stuff hanging off the back....davits, etc...that all gets added to you LOA....sad to see it happening.....you might have a 40' LOA boat, but the marina doesn't see it that way.
I see the same with drystack storage of fishing boats...you might have a 24' fishing boat, but they will add the length of outboard motor...another 2-3'......gives them an extra $40/ month or so...
It's all becoming a bit of a racket in my opinion....environmental fees....etc...etc...etc...
Electric useage is a big one...you can be plugged in, run your a/c 24/7, but if you don't live on the boat, you'll pay a lower bill than if you did live on it....

I don't know where this will all go.....what with Covid restrictions, high fuel prices, high slip fees, etc.....its anybody's guess...

[valhalla360]

With identical boats, it's all about who is the better sailor.

Outside of dingy racing, it is (and always has been) very rare to put identical boats up against each other.

The handicap system was developed so dissimilar boats could be put up against each other in an attempt to make if fair when a very fast design is put up against a slow design. The intent is that the bettor sailor will win on handicap regardless of boat.

The problem is new boats got designed based on the handicap system. It's more complicated but for a long time, the biggest single item was LWL as measured at the dock. Designers quickly figured out, you could design a hull with a short LWL compared to LOA but when heeled over, much of that overhang would be in the water effectively increasing the LWL...and speed.

Now this isn't the only factor, being a better sailor, having new high performance sails, etc..., still has a big effect but all else being equal one of these rule beater boats had an advantage...at least until they became the standard design.

I really think any talk of ascetics is chicken and egg. The old farts of today grew up with the "best" racing boats having long overhangs, so it got baked in that long overhangs are fast and therefore beautiful...even though they are slower.

The nice thing is in recent years, cruisers have been purchasing boats in ever larger numbers relative to racers. Cruisers want the most LWL and volume relative to LOA because most costs (purchase, slips, haul out etc...) are priced based on LOA. As a result, designers have shifted towards boats that maximize speed relative to LOA along with volume to support carrying stuff.

[MicHughV]

True....if you've ever watched a one-off racing event....ie, the Olympics..where all the boats are the same...or as near as damnit the same.....you will see the fleet over a wide area, where every skipper is trying to use his/or her best judgement. Even though the boats are all the same, by rule, it's the skipper, that makes the difference, not only knowing how to sail the boat the best, but also to be a great tactician.

At the end of the day, there is always an element of "luck" involved as well....being at the right place during a windshift, etc...

I enjoyed my racing days....it did make me a better sailor...but these days, I'm into comfort....I want a boat that doesn't spill my beer when heeled over excessively......this is far more important than a good handicap rating

[Woodland Hills]

Is it a good idea to drink and drive your boat? Where is it even legal to drink while captaining any sort of boat? I am hoping this was just a poor attempt at a joke.......

Once you drop anchor, you can open up the bar!

[TBear60]

One of the best books I've read on boat design. It'll give you the history and most of the basics: Yacht Design According to Perry : My Boats and What Shaped Them, by Robert H. Perry

Much of what is traditional boat design has been re-written with recent boat design, ie. beamy boats are slow, but this book is good to start with.

I'd start there then look around for a newer book by a more current designer like Farr or Berret-Racoupeau and it'll get you up to date with modern beamy, flat, fin-keel, surfing/foiling boats.

Good Luck

[roland stockham]

Lots of people talking about the influence of racing rules but another big one is the way marinas charge. For many people slip fees are one of the big expenses and they are charged on LOA. Means a wide boat with no overhangs maximizes accommodation space relative to slip fees. Also may be why bowsprits are rare now.

Like all things moderation is good. Very long overhangs don't do much for performance except allowing more sail area for a given waterline. Moderate overhangs can reduce wetted area and therefore drag when sailing upright in light airs but once the wind picks up and the boat heels water line length extends increasing top speed

[Pandor]

Originally Posted by Woodland Hills

Is it a good idea to drink and drive your boat? Where is it even legal to drink while captaining any sort of boat? I am hoping this was just a poor attempt at a joke.......

Once you drop anchor, you can open up the bar!

Of course it is legal. Google it please before you try to separate a sailor from his hard earned suds.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Shmorrell for a lot of designers I am sure the LWL is the last thing on their mind. That's what makes boat designing an art and so interesting. Much like admiring a woman, not everyone wants a tall, angular broad arse Sheila. Some of us enjoy a few curves within a shorter length and are happy to sacrifice a bone jarring ride for a bit more comfort.
Cheers

One very sensible response.

[MicHughV]

hang out in the Caribbean for a while....boating and boozing, right or wrong, good or bad, is very much a part of the cruising lifestyle....the 5 'o clock happy hour usually starts at 9 am..

[MJH]

Originally Posted by shmorrell

Hi all - relative newbie here, so forgive if this is a dumb question!

I'm looking at boats from the 80's, esp Morgan 38x designs.What is the point of designing a hull with a 38 foot LOA with a 30 foot waterline? Or to put it another way why not maximize the waterline to obtain a faster hull speed? Because really, who wouldn't rather go a little bit faster? (within reason)

Why design the stern to sit up out of the water, sacrificing waterline length, and also reducing interior volume? I imagine the answer has something to do with the motion of the boat in a seaway and/or heavy weather. But it seems to me that the overall shape of the hull is more relevant to this issue.

Also, can anyone recommend a book that discusses these elements of hull design? Best to all, Steve

Many good replies but lets not forget marketing. Along with racing rules the charter industry impacts the number and types of boats produced and their objective (revenue) is not necessarily what the cruising boat OWNER wants or is best for that activity.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by MJH

Many good replies but lets not forget marketing. Along with racing rules the charter industry impacts the number and types of boats produced and their objective (revenue) is not necessarily what the cruising boat OWNER wants or is best for that activity.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

Eye appeal is probably a part of it.

[MicHughV]

the charter industry is mostly geared to catamarans for no other reason than a cat can provide for 4 separate cabins...sailing ability comes a distant second......your modern day charter cat has the "steering" location 10' up in the air....for no other reason than to provide a big open space for charter guests, who will be busy boozing it up...issues such as LWL and LOA are really meaningless to a charter cat, that has to use the engine to tack the boat.....
your modern day monohull really comes in two flavors these days...you get the flat bottomed, planing hull, no overhangs French boats....or the older style, long overhang classic plastic..with a small smathering of relatively heavy double enders in between....it's a smorgasbord out there...pick something you like, and like what you pick !

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

Lots of people talking about the influence of racing rules but another big one is the way marinas charge. For many people slip fees are one of the big expenses and they are charged on LOA. Means a wide boat with no overhangs maximizes accommodation space relative to slip fees. Also may be why bowsprits are rare now.

It's not just marinas. New boat pricing tends to follow LOA. Haul out...priced on LOA. Bottom paint...priced on LOA. Storage on the hard....again LOA.

So getting the most boat you can for a given LOA is a win for cruisers who don't race.