looking for some advice/questions answered for around the world planning

[noahsrejects]

Hello all,

This may seem won't like a somewhat lengthy post, but I figure this is the best audience to have my questions answered and hear some good advice about some boats that are on my mind. Some back story, I am nearing the end of my military career (about eight years left) and want to buy a boat to live on and eventually sail away after I retire. I'm planning so early because I want the be paid off by the time I'm done. My girlfriend and her son Will be joining me on the voyage and plan to circumnavigate at a slow pace, seeing as many the Locations as possible. I keep revisiting the following boats based on their overall seaworthiness, but all seem to have their own special appeal. Be there in no particular order of favorites...

44, 42, 40 and 37 foot Pacific Seacraft Crealocks
40 and 38 foot Caliber LRC's
44, 42, 40 and 37 foot Island Packet Yachts
I don't know why, but the CSY 37
42 foot Tayana Vancouver

Yes I know that there're quite a few on this list. This is why I am bringing to the experts. If you don't see something on this list that you think I should consider, please let me know. For now..... On to the questions.

The Pacific Seacraft and the Calibers so far my favorite. They seem to have the space below decks figured out and don't skimp on storage space. My second favorite down the list is the Island packet, however, the larger models seem to only come equipped with two heads, which is something I am not interested in based on space requirements. Has anyone seen one of the larger models with one head? Are there any out there? If not, has anyone ever seen somebody refit one of the heads up to a storage unit and isn't worth it? For those that have made long passages before, what sort of tankage volume should I be looking for in a boat as far as water and fuel? The only other question I have so far is based on my location. I am currently stationed in Hawaii, and surprisingly to me, There are not a whole lot of sailboats here, or at least not as many as I expected. If anybody happens to live out on Oahu and has one of these models and would be willing to do a little show and tell, I would be forever grateful. Looking at pictures is one thing but seeing something up close makes all the difference. I'm sure I will have more questions eventually, But didn't want to make this the longest host possible. I don't expect one person to answer all my questions, just to pick apart at one thing or another. I appreciate any advice and answers to my questions. Thanks in advance

[chuckr]

do you know how to sail?

[noahsrejects]

Yes I do. When I was stationed out on the East Coast, I used to help deliver sailboats with my friend. Since then, I have taken as many ASA classes as I can get my hands on in try to crew with people at yacht club events locally.

[Jim Cate]

G'day Noah, and welcome to CF!

Not an unreasonably long post by any means, and you made your questions pretty clear. What is missing is a bit about you and your sailing experience or lack thereof. At the remove of 8 years it doesn't matter in terms of learning enough skills to do the job, but without a decent amount of experience you lack the knowledge to choose a boat, even with our help. Not trying to knock you in any way, just saying that looking at specs, ads and brochures without a background to filter the salesmanship out of the verbiage is pretty hard.

All of the boats that you list are conservative, "old school", fairly low performance designs. All are competent passagemakers, and none (AFAiK) have great flaws that would rule them out for your intended usage. If you have done some sailing, especially offshore, and that is the sort of boat you crave, then you join a well established group of cruisers. But if you lack that personal experience, you may be excluding a wide range of boats that would suit you better. And there is also a well established group who cruise world wide in more modern boats. The difference is that there is a hell of a lot more literature penned by the former group, from the Hiscocks to the Pardeys, than the latter group, and this tends to skew a lot of opinions from newbies who read a lot!

Anyhow, you seem to be taking a long range look at options (a good thing) and I hope that you get some local folks to give you some on board experiences, or better, some hours or days at sea in their boats. If you were in Oz, Ann and I would do so with pleasure. I bet you will find someone in Hawaii. Meanwhile, if you can let us know abit more about you it will help us help you.

Good luck!

Jim

Edit: whilst i was typing, you have answered some of my questions. Seems that you have done some sailing, and likely on various types of boats, so please disregard some of my harping!

PS Do remember, when doing your extrapolations that eight years is a long time in the development of your GF's child. We don't know its current age, but it WILL change a lot in that time frame!

[noahsrejects]

Jim,

Thanks for the insight. I do consider myself still a novice sailor in comparison to some of the folks that I've met my travels, but I learn something new and continues to improve every day. When I used to deliver sailboats, the majority of the boats that I delivered for more high performance and a sleeker design. I don't really care about the high or low performance factor, what interests me more is durability and comfort on those long passages which is what these vessels seem to offer. My girlfriend's son is currently five but already loves the water and will be a mid teenager once I retire. My hope is once I get back to the East Coast, I can buy the boat and start living aboard to upgrade/Repair in preparation for the big voyage, But be able to sail during the weekends and holidays.

[bigpuff]

you wouldn't go wrong with an IP , they are well found and quiet quick for there looks,Get a good survey by a reputable surveyer first

[UNCIVILIZED]

First, thanks for your service. It’s a lot of hours, at low pay, probably with some of the best folks you’ll ever know. So hats off to you.

As to the boat, don’t make the (big) error that performance isn’t important. You’ll want, & often need, to be able to sail well in light air, often upwind. So you’ll be doing yourself a disservice to buy a boat which, when loaded with 2t+ of cruising gear & stores, doesn’t have an SADR (Sail Area to Displacement Ratio) of 20 or better. Which you can see boat’s base SADR’s on Sailboatdata.com is the worlds largest sailboat database. & figuring out how to calculate it’s easy to look up. Just plan to re-compute it for a boat with about said quantity of gear onboard, but by also allowing for say a 125% genoa instead of a jib.
And when you’re looking at multihulls, you want a Bruce Number of 1.3 or better when fully loaded. It’s a better number to use for them than an SADR.

The above number(s) will be part of a list of criteria about the boats that will be on your short list, that you need to develop. To include preferences/necessities such as good ventilation of type X, & Y which works even with all of the hatches shut, in no wind, even with insect screens in place. Or no balsa hull coring (do some searching & reading on this). And to swipe one from Ann & Jim Cate, no Volvo engines or saildrives. Along with a personal one, the boat needs to have room on deck for a hard dinghy or nesting dinghy, in a location that doesn’t block visibility from the helm, & preferably not from the companionway when safely behind the dodger.

Then take this list, refining it over time, & based on it, add boat type X to your list of candidate boats, or cross boat type Y off of it. Along with making up a spread sheet which covers every kind of gear you’d like to have onboard. So that when you then see a boat for sale, it’s easy to calculate how much (in theory) it’ll cost you to get her up to your personal cruising standard of fit out. Thus determining a boat’s actual value (& cost) to you, once she’s prepped & ready to shove off for points unknown (or known).

In reality there’s always work to be done to boats, & gear to be added, etc. But the above should give you a good yardstick by which to evaluate & compare them. And it’ll also help you to better hone what you want in a boat, including what level of gear you want, including make & possibly, model.
Sounds as if you’ve got a good base from which to work on this, & it’s a fun “journey”. One that’s good to take together, as all of you will be living together in what amounts to a space the size of a walk in closet. And at times under pretty stressful conditions. So the choosing of things should be one that everyone is in on.

Oh, & everyone onboard ideally should have their own designated sea berth. Or a good plan for hot racking. Plus definitely a dedicate private space when not at sea per say, even If it’s but a stowage locker for toys, along with one for clothes.


Included here are some links to info which may help with your search. Though aren’t specific to your boat needs 100%, but will aid with self education for it. Follow the links within the links below…
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2206710
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2082019

PS: Start reading Nigel Calder's stuff on boat systems. How they're to be maintained, repaired, & installed. Plus his stuff on preferred boat features too. And download the Dashew's books (gratis) from their website. It wouldn't hurt to have hard copies of all of these references too.
SetSail FPB » Free Books
A Refit Reality Check | Cruising World

[Paul Kelly]

I wouldn't worry about two heads. People I know have a 37 footer with two heads (one large and one small). They removed the smaller one and turned it into a hanging space/wardrobe.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Paul Kelly

I wouldn't worry about two heads. People I know have a 37 footer with two heads (one large and one small). They removed the smaller one and turned it into a hanging space/wardrobe.

I concur. Forget planning for guests or "owner's amenities". World cruising is more about proper seaberths, watchstanding and one, proper head with grab bars.

Your list is pretty well conservatively designed boats. Plan on "round the world at 4.5 knots". That's not a problem, especially if you want the stowage of two-four week passages and the toolchests and spares to allow self-sufficiency. Consider also the Bristol 45.5. The centerboard option gives you access to thinner water, and they are tough, capacious boats. Give some thought to skegs, directional stability and ease of heaving to, as well as staysails, drogue attachments and so on. You WILL see heavy weather that you won't be able to outrun, so pick a boat that can give you a break as it passes over.

I would suggest upping your game through crewing on deliveries on the sorts of boats that interest you. This has taught me a great deal, both about what works and what doesn't, but also how I react to open oceans (puke on Day One, and not after that!)

As for planning, climate change is gradually altering the statistical probabilities of pilot charts, but there are still broad, seasonal strokes in effect in route planning, and the Admiralty book with Jimmy Cornell's latest give plenty of guidance on how and when to make your passages.

[spillemw]

My 2 cents if I may is that I would never consider anything under a 40 footer if you plan to live on it with a teenage boy. He will need space to get away from it all. For the same reason to guarantee his privacy i would keep the second head, which will be almost standard in boats of over 40 feet.
Don't forget either that a longer boat will give you more speed automatically.
For comfort and safety reasons if you are not terribly experienced as you seem not to be I would also opt for a central cockpit. Some of these boats come with only two cabins but one of which is a huge master cabin.
Personally for a live-on I would definitely look at a Hallberg-Rassy. Have you considered buying your boat in Europe? With the British pound being at an all time low and a buyer's market for secondhand sailing boats it should not be too difficult to pick something decent up there. You could sail it over yourself or it should not be too difficult to find a crew to do it for you (preferably between November and March though to avoid Hurricane season).

For instance the below one in Italy :
http://en.yacht4web.com/Hallberg-Rassy/hr-42/57388

[hamburking]

I suggest you turn the question around...what boats are available that fit my budget? I've always felt that I don't choose the boat, the boat chooses me. FWIW, I've had 8 sailboats (so far).

When I was selling my last sailboat, I had maybe a half dozen guys, just like you, come to see it. They were no where near ready to buy, but ready to see a sailboat in person, touch and feel. I was pleased, and insisted on taking everyone out for a sea trial. One young guy didn't have the time when he was there, so I had him come back on the weekend with his girlfriend for a full day of "sea trial" complete with lunch and swimming. I can tell you this...that guy is going to buy a sailboat just as soon as he can...his gf loved it!

As for two heads...I crossed the ocean on a swan48 with two heads. We all used the aft "ensuite", while the spacious forward head was home to about 9 large spare sails. I fully agree with you...one head is enough. No need to double up all the plumbing, tanks, etc. Sometimes I think one head is one too many....but thats another thread entirely.

I have two friendly suggestions for you.
1) Get Jimmy Cornell's famous book, World Sailing Routes. It describes the passages and timing for sailing around the world.
2) SAIL on as many boats and as much as you can. Get a crappy/cheap boat to sail and learn on. Start sailing now. Life is short. Plans change...I know mine did.

And finally...There is no perfect boat. Accept that it will be a compromise and just get the best boat you can. In 8 years the used fleet will be 8 years older and the prices will be entirely different.

[buzzstar]

Another 2 cents worth (at less than a cent each). 1. Your list of boats is too limited right now. 2. Lurk on this forum (and others, say Yahoo etc.) with an open mind and do not hesitate to copy (pdf format) good ideas on any subject. 3. Google (and similar) every vessel that interests you, read the reviews, the articles, see what is for sale, with what, where and how much, and again print in PDF and save, including photos. Another thing that has gone unmentioned is the continuing expenses of owning and cruising, particularly as you may want to compare them to your income (now and then). Whatever, ENJOY.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by noahsrejects

Jim,

Thanks for the insight. I do consider myself still a novice sailor in comparison to some of the folks that I've met my travels, but I learn something new and continues to improve every day. When I used to deliver sailboats, the majority of the boats that I delivered for more high performance and a sleeker design. I don't really care about the high or low performance factor, what interests me more is durability and comfort on those long passages which is what these vessels seem to offer. My girlfriend's son is currently five but already loves the water and will be a mid teenager once I retire. My hope is once I get back to the East Coast, I can buy the boat and start living aboard to upgrade/Repair in preparation for the big voyage, But be able to sail during the weekends and holidays.

Noah, I think that you will do just fine with your plan. As you gain experience, you will be able to fine tune your ideas about suitable designs, and if you post more specific questions here, we collectively can offer a lot of help.

One thing to remember (likely that you already do) is that here on the internet, you may be getting responses from folks who have no more, or even less actual knowledge than yourself. It's a worry...

Jim

[Suijin]

In terms of similar boats (price and age) to the ones you listed, I'd add:

Valiant 40 and 42
Passport 40
Van de Stadt 44
Gulfstar 40 and 44
Bristol
Hallberg Rassy


Valiants were built in Bellingham WA and Texas. Passports in Asia. Both were built as world cruisers. Roomy and relatively good performance for their time.

You'll likely have trouble finding a Van de Stadt or HR in your price range but it does not hurt to look. They are exceptional boats.

[RickG]

We started with a similar list ++Passport 40, Saga 43/409, Bristol, Whitby/Brewer, a 1990 Alden... Things change when you inspect a lot of boats and start digging into the owners' forums on places like Yahoo Groups. You can find out a lot by reading the owners talk about their boats. Some of those boats that review so well have fun things like the early Caliber 40LRCs single holding tank location built in under the anchor locker and far from the aft head. The owners are happy to talk about their challenges and solutions.

We have a survey next Monday on a 42' production boat that ended up being the best fit for us. Not what we expected, but she has a good pedigree and current owner. The reality is that I need to keep working for a few more years while we liveaboard in a marina. We decided to buy the boat that was best for us today rather than in the future.

Cheers, RickG