Main and mizzen furling options

[Manateeman]

Long before yachts carried radios and satellite communications, long before gps was available, long before AIS, there existed yachtsmen and women who routinely enjoyed voyaging. They relied on the observations and skills past to them by fishermen, ships, whalers. They had little weather information. Medical expertise or rescue was not a radio call away. They were not fools. Fast, lightly built, highly canvased, tender racing vessels are not a recent invention. But for voyaging, the first choice custom design was often a motorsailor. The portfolios of top designers included many similar to the original posters vessel. Attributes such as kind motion in rough water and ease of vessel handeling rather than sheer speed were valued. These timeless designs incorporated a now forgotten safety factor...survivability. Hit a reef, survive, loose your mast, survive. A long, long storm...batten her down and as frightening as it all seems, you might get some sleep. Not so in a racing cruiser. Not just...not comfortable but dangerous.
The brain has great difficulty adapting to the constant quick motion. The body more so. In how many rescues or abandonments are the vessels later found ok.
Vessel strength mattered because your yacht was an extension of your independence...of your character. You couldn’t expect a helo lift if you broke your arm inside your boat. Speed or racing...it’s has a long history and perhaps a positive influence on some designs but so did commerce..whale ship design, or fishing boat design. Designs that worked for a living made economic sense. They had proven themselves. Motorsailing vessels as stoutly built and as aesthetically designed as this example... by a learned hand no less...are a joy to voyage within. The fast rabbit did not wins the long race . Turtle did. LOL
No toy beaten up ex race boat circling the drain. The OP has a truly seaworthy vessel. Lot of sea miles to go.
Happy trails to you.
Mark, a yacht building manatee.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

Long before yachts carried radios and satellite communications, long before gps was available, long before AIS, there existed yachtsmen and women who routinely enjoyed voyaging. They relied on the observations and skills past to them by fishermen, ships, whalers. They had little weather information. Medical expertise or rescue was not a radio call away. They were not fools. Fast, lightly built, highly canvased, tender racing vessels are not a recent invention. But for voyaging, the first choice custom design was often a motorsailor. The portfolios of top designers included many similar to the original posters vessel. Attributes such as kind motion in rough water and ease of vessel handeling rather than sheer speed were valued. These timeless designs incorporated a now forgotten safety factor...survivability. Hit a reef, survive, loose your mast, survive. A long, long storm...batten her down and as frightening as it all seems, you might get some sleep. Not so in a racing cruiser. Not just...not comfortable but dangerous.
The brain has great difficulty adapting to the constant quick motion. The body more so. In how many rescues or abandonments are the vessels later found ok.
Vessel strength mattered because your yacht was an extension of your independence...of your character. You couldn’t expect a helo lift if you broke your arm inside your boat. Speed or racing...it’s has a long history and perhaps a positive influence on some designs but so did commerce..whale ship design, or fishing boat design. Designs that worked for a living made economic sense. They had proven themselves. Motorsailing vessels as stoutly built and as aesthetically designed as this example... by a learned hand no less...are a joy to voyage within. The fast rabbit did not wins the long race . Turtle did. LOL
No toy beaten up ex race boat circling the drain. The OP has a truly seaworthy vessel. Lot of sea miles to go.
Happy trails to you.
Mark, a yacht building manatee.

Well, your responses are improving. A mostly reasoned argument, other than the obligatory insults, is better than the previous screed or the profane private email.

But remember the point is not whether the aforementioned motorsailer is a good boat, but if the OP should invest a lot of money to make sail-handling marginally better. Especially since he has no way of knowing the actual difficulty of it the way it is or in the long run how often he'd actually wind up sailing, which in my judgement, will be rare.

[Captain Bligh]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, that sounds reasonable. This hurts performance but you won't miss it much on the mizzen.


What about the props?

The props are fixed. I plan on sailing it with at least one engine idling in gear for the time being unless I'm in a hurricane.

[Captain Bligh]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Especially since he has no way of knowing the actual difficulty of it the way it is or in the long run how often he'd actually wind up sailing, which in my judgement, will be rare.

Well i do know it is difficult now. But I also know it is not difficult with behind the mast furling. While I will likely not be sailing it often, I will be motor sailing it when i use it. I live in the waters of 20-35 knot winds daily so I think ill get a nice boost from the wind.
I am fully aware of this vessels limited sailing capabilities, yet it is still the vessel I want. It will fit my current boating and cruising habits for the foreseeable future.

[alanrothenbush]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I have had behind the mast furling and my own personal experience is that it sucks.

Which one?

You see, I know I'd use the main a whole lot more on those 60 minute sails with my little 28 footer if I had a furling main. (Efficiency is not a concern, I sometimes just like to piddle about.)

I'm considering a Behind the Mast furler, simply because there is a stunning difference in price between the two types (in and behind), 5:1 or more .. much more.

(In boom furling is completely out of the question; I could buy a very nice car for the price of the boom alone.)

A CDI BtM is a couple of grand, looks close to foolproof and I can install it myself.

Any of the in-mast systems cost more than my boat is worth AND I'd need a rigger to swap the mast, etc.

It's the difference between having one and not having one.

So I'm curious what you had and what put you off ...


Alan

[CarlF]

Well, here's an offbeat idea. Forget about the mainsail.

Install a stack pack on the mizzen - new sail - full battens with a big roach. It will drive much better upwind than a behind the mast furler. And believe me - a boat that can't sail upwind is not much fun.

Have a Battcar or similar to make sure it comes down. It won't cost that much because it's not that big a sail. And you won't have to reef it because it's not a big enough sail to overpower the boat in anything short of a full gale. Set it before you leave the harbor and furl it after you are inside the breakwater. Set it even when motoring as it will help steady the roll.

A small sail pretty much stores itself in a stack pack. You don't even have to pull the zipper except when leaving the boat. Have the sailmaker make the cover a little oversize so the sail drops in better and have a cord to make it easier to pull the zipper.

Also get a new Genoa if the current one is at all blown out. Consider making it bigger since it's already on a furler.

Then do what a ketch does best - sail jib and jigger. Leave the main furled. The mizzen balances the Genoa so the helm feels lovely. It's a very powerful sail combination upwind. This will only work when the apparent wind over the deck is 20+ knots - the rest of the time you'll need to motorsail. But I bet the engine in that old girl is quiet so that will still feel like sailing. And you won't need much engine. The sails will do most of the work.

And for off the wind, get yourself a big colorful mizzen staysail. These are easy to set and easy to douse. No furlers. Pull the sheet in tight, blanket it with the mizzen and the thing just drops to the deck. Made of spinnaker nylon so it's light and easy to stuff in a bag. They work from a tight reach to a broad reach and will bring a smile to your face. The sight will turn a lot of heads.

Leave the mainsail as it is now for when you have some college age guests on board. They'll love the gymnastics to set the thing.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by alanrothenbush

Which one?

You see, I know I'd use the main a whole lot more on those 60 minute sails with my little 28 footer if I had a furling main. (Efficiency is not a concern, I sometimes just like to piddle about.)

I'm considering a Behind the Mast furler, simply because there is a stunning difference in price between the two types (in and behind), 5:1 or more .. much more.

(In boom furling is completely out of the question; I could buy a very nice car for the price of the boom alone.)

A CDI BtM is a couple of grand, looks close to foolproof and I can install it myself.

Any of the in-mast systems cost more than my boat is worth AND I'd need a rigger to swap the mast, etc.

It's the difference between having one and not having one.

So I'm curious what you had and what put you off ...


Alan

It was a Facnor, and it sucked. It was sticky and had huge amounts of friction in it somewhere, and aerodynamically it was a disaster.



A 28-footer? Why would you ever consider any kind of furling mainsail? What a pleasure to handle a mainsail of that size.


You probably have sticky slugs in a worn track and an awkward reefing system. The solution to that is not change over to a completely different system, but to fix what you have.



If I were you, I would spend my money on a nice new full batten mainsail (nice roachy one, preferably laminate), and a batt car system with ball bearing cars. Then get lazy jacks or a stack pack and work out a really good reefing system.



What about your mainsail controls? Is the outhaul led properly, do you have a good traveler system, do you have a Cunningham? How is the vang set up? If you want to enjoy sailing, you have to get all this stuff right.



You will get far more pleasure handling the mainsail, and far more pleasure sailing, like this. Well set up on a boat that size it shouldn't take you more than 30 seconds to get the mainsail up nor more than 3 or 4 minutes to get it down and flaked and covered. I would never dream of any kind of furling system on a boat that size. Something like in-mast furling starts to make sense really only on boats above about maybe 45 feet, and even then only for boats used in ocean conditions in all kinds of weather, in my opinion. And certainly never on a sub-30 footer.

[Captain Bligh]

Update; I met with a rigger. He agreed the mizzen is impossible to use in its current configuration. We are going with behind the mast furling. The main will remain the same and we are adding a stack pack and new lazy jacks. It might look a little funny , but the rig will be managable.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Captain Bligh

. . . I live in the waters of 20-35 knot winds daily so I think ill get a nice boost from the wind.. .

You will not need engines on any kind of reach in winds of 20+. Anything can sail in that. If you want to spend money on your boat, rather than any kind of furling gear, I would for sure do something about the props. Huge payoff, especially since there are two of them. Any folding or feathering prop will benefit you not only sailing, but motoring on one engine, which no doubt you will do a LOT.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Captain Bligh

Update; I met with a rigger. He agreed the mizzen is impossible to use in its current configuration. We are going with behind the mast furling. The main will remain the same and we are adding a stack pack and new lazy jacks. It might look a little funny , but the rig will be managable.

That sounds like a reasonable solution