Middle frame cracks. How much critical?

[gray_sailor]

Hello everyone!


I am looking at Bavaria 32 and have found cracks and some delamination of the middle frame.
Is here anyone with boat building education, who can tell me how much critical can this be for the boat integrity?


The boat was obviously grounded.
But the keel attachment looks strong.
The question is only about the middle frame.


Pictures below.

[BillKny]

You do not mention it, but the joint between the keel and the hull sure looks "rough." Without a closeup it is impossible to be sure, but it looks to me like there is extra sealant applied to the outside of the joint. Whenever I see that I know an amateur has tried to stop a leak.

Myself, I'd find another boat...

[psk125]

"The keel attachment is strong." Great. That's like saying the handle is firmly connected to your screen door, but the last guy who used it tore the top hinge off. The crack indicates that the keel has leveraged the hull to such an extent that it has broken. There are likely similar cracks at the other end. The keel hitting something has pulled the forward end of it down and the aft end of it up. Where the keel attaches to the bottom of the boat may look fine, but essentially, the bottom of the boat has started getting ripped open by the keel. It can be fixed, but it has to be done right, and may not be an easy or cheap fix.

[LittleWing77]

Ask Manateeman or JimBunyard (both professional boatbuilders) to weigh in with a second opinion, but psk125 is right-on.

As well as BillKny says - find another boat.

+1
LittleWing77

[Manateeman]

Since this is not your boat, I strongly suggest you do a lot of research and pay for an independent survey because fin keel repairs can become very expensive.
Please also check the professional qualifications and yacht building experience of those who post advice or opinions.
Two good sources of information. 1. Bavariayacht.org. 2. Boat design.net
Bavaria yachts are well engineered. There are numerous owners who have posted issues with their keels. Please review these.
I have never visited their plant nor have I seen the construction drawings, but I have built vessels with similar keels. I’m not a big fan of this type of construction.
What I find interesting in reading over posts from other Bavaria owners is two things. Bavaria uses wood as a structural element and you find a crack in a wood component. I began building wood boats and properly engineered, wood is fine as a structural element. Next, Bavaria uses a thickened epoxy rather than a polyurethane between keel and hull. Pulling a keel off a hull is no simple matter but Bavaria owners have done this and it is expensive .
If you are committed to purchasing this vessel, please take your time to get an accurate cost. Anything can be fixed, but even the finest boatbuilders will tell you the complexity of some repairs are very difficult to see until things are taken apart. Simply dropping the keel partially, can pull pieces of the hull off. Lastly, do not take any shortcuts with wood structural elements. Wood / epoxy construction with clean dry surfaces yields far greater strength than wood joints exposed to contamination from salts or oils.
Have you an opinion from the builders?
Happy trails to you.
The manatee crew.

[gray_sailor]

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

Ask Manateeman or JimBunyard (both professional boatbuilders) to weigh in with a second opinion, but psk125 is right-on.

As well as BillKny says - find another boat.

+1
LittleWing77

I lean towards the same opinion.
But I need someone with boat building background to give an opinion.
I wrote an email to Bavaria yesterday, but they will answer on Monday the earliest.


I wrote to Manateeman. Hopefully he will advise.
Thanks!!!

[gray_sailor]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

Since this is not your boat, I strongly suggest you do a lot of research and pay for an independent survey because fin keel repairs can become very expensive.
Please also check the professional qualifications and yacht building experience of those who post advice or opinions.
Two good sources of information. 1. Bavariayacht.org. 2. Boat design.net
Bavaria yachts are well engineered. There are numerous owners who have posted issues with their keels. Please review these.
I have never visited their plant nor have I seen the construction drawings, but I have built vessels with similar keels. I’m not a big fan of this type of construction.
What I find interesting in reading over posts from other Bavaria owners is two things. Bavaria uses wood as a structural element and you find a crack in a wood component. I began building wood boats and properly engineered, wood is fine as a structural element. Next, Bavaria uses a thickened epoxy rather than a polyurethane between keel and hull. Pulling a keel off a hull is no simple matter but Bavaria owners have done this and it is expensive .
If you are committed to purchasing this vessel, please take your time to get an accurate cost. Anything can be fixed, but even the finest boatbuilders will tell you the complexity of some repairs are very difficult to see until things are taken apart. Simply dropping the keel partially, can pull pieces of the hull off. Lastly, do not take any shortcuts with wood structural elements. Wood / epoxy construction with clean dry surfaces yields far greater strength than wood joints exposed to contamination from salts or oils.
Have you an opinion from the builders?
Happy trails to you.
The manatee crew.

Mataneeman, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

Please also check the professional qualifications and yacht building experience of those who post advice or opinions.

Once again, Manateeman provides an excellent and thorough response, but just can't resist slagging/ implied-slagging of fellow Forum Members, which, I'm sorry, Mark, just drives me bananas.

Okay, so BillKny is a relatively new Member, but from his comments, he has a sharp eye. He is right. It IS a red flag when you see thickened sealant, which can indicate an amateur repair. It can also indicate a badly executed "professional" repair. Does it matter which? No.

What DOES matter is why would one keep making a boat fit one's checklist when indicators are that there has been a hard grounding and perhaps catastrophic and expensive repair? I'm sure Gray would prefer to go sailing.

As for psk125, he's far too modest to toot his own horn, but suffice to say he is a VERY high-level and seasoned racing skipper and multiple-boat owner. For years. He knows whereof he speaks.

Okay, that's my rant for today.
LittleWing77

[Spot]

Link from another sailing website.

First part of this video is a narrated tour through a Bavaria factory.
The second part is a little 'artsy' concerning bigger boats/ships.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi2O85mkJXo

[Manateeman]

I sincerely apologize to all members.
It was snarky, ill-mannered and I’ve been guilty of it before.
I will reread my posts before posting.
I do appreciate all the replies to my posts and for everyone taking the time to post. Everyone has the perfect right to comment.
There is no excuse for my bad manners and I can only wish the sincerity of the apology will be accepted as being true.
Mark and his much humbled crew.

[Apollo366]

Don't WALK away....RUN Away!!

Apollo Wayne

[peter loveridge]

if those are the keel bolts I can tell you the washers are too small

[Searles]

Inspect the lower lending edge of the lead keel for new or old damage plus the washers under the keel bolts are way to small ,could be much more damage if fully surveyed, red flag .⚓️⛵️

[BAD ORCA]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

I sincerely apologize to all members.
It was snarky, ill-mannered and I’ve been guilty of it before.
I will reread my posts before posting.
I do appreciate all the replies to my posts and for everyone taking the time to post. Everyone has the perfect right to comment.
There is no excuse for my bad manners and I can only wish the sincerity of the apology will be accepted as being true.
Mark and his much humbled crew.

you got to remember to password lock your computer when you go to the jon. your drunkard manatee crew was at it on the keyboard when you were away....manatees and booze is a bad combo.

[Clivevon]

Hi Grey Sailor. Well spotted. Reality is that you can have no idea of the extent of the damage to the boat without ripping it apart. To be honest I am curious as to why you are even asking questions here. Are there not that many boats for sale in Russia?

Walk away. Find another boat.