Moody vs other higher end brands

[SofiaB]

We seriously looked at the Moody Deck Saloon 45 but I couldn't get past the balsa core. Wife loves the catamaran concept and it appeared to have a great layout and very safe rails. Not sure about the sailing performance based on weight but other than the balsa core I was ready for a test sail.

[tarian]

Moodys are great solid sailing boats, great owners association, easy to find parts and a solid sail, on a choppy sea,
Thee is a reason older moody are still sailing strong , by god I should know I have a 1979 moody solid dependable , cruiser , I have no need to go fast I like the journey

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by nuru05

So the wife and I are starting to get to the point of seriously looking for a boat. We plan to move aboard with our daughter sometime next winter/spring. We have a healthy budget but obviously the more we spend the more time we will have to take off to work each year (we are both nurses so we plan to travel nurse a few months a year).

Recently the Moody's have caught our eye. We love the design of the moody 44 and it might be beating out the previous leader of the Hylas 49 in our minds. The thing that is surprising to us is how much cheaper it is than a lot of other "higher end" boats. It seems like there are a number of Moody 44's <$120k that look to be in pretty good shape. If we can pick one up for that price and get away with only putting another $20-30k into it we would be able to cruise for several years before having to work at all because our previous budget was $250k.

What are your guys' thoughts on them? We are planning to live aboard and cruise at least 9 months a year. We are primarily looking for the older heavier built boats preferably with a center cockpit because safety is key to us.

There is a lot of detailed discussion on this in the archives, if you care to trawl around in them.


The English Moodys (not the Hanse built ones) are certainly "high end boats", in the sense that they were "stick-built", that is, hand made one by one, with no prefabrication and no liner, the same way Oysters, Discoverys, HR etc. are made.


Note that not all English Moodys are the same, either -- they were a dominant high end gentleman's yacht brand in the 50's and 60's, with emphasis on motor sailing ketches with exquisite fitouts (some of the most expensive sailboats from the 60's today are those old Primrose-designed raised-salon Moodys). Then Moody tried to make some more "democratic" boats in the 70's and 80's but were still hand making them and so couldn't really compete with the much cheaper mass produced French boats, so starting in the early '90's they went upmarket again and tried to put up a competitive fight against Oyster, which was rising at that time. They failed at that (couldn't do the "luxury product" marketing which Oyster was so brilliant at, and missed some of the details needed for that market niche), so went bankrupt in the late 2000's and closed after 170 years or something of boat building. I think Moody was the oldest yacht builder in the world, at least among those building in any kind of significant volume. The last generation of Moodys -- the 54, 64, 47 and 49 -- are lovely boats, just not quite as nice a fitout as comparable Oysters, but equal or better structure, definitely better deck gear, and better sailing qualities.



Moodys have certain pluses and minuses. I think the biggest plus of them is absolutely immense structural strength; the later Moodys have the best structure of any boat I've ever seen, and I'm not excluding Swans. All the bulkheads are fully tabbed in AND through-bolted; there is are immensely strong ring floors tying the massive chain plates (which must weigh 100 pounds each) into the structure. The hulls are fully cored with encapsulated balsa blocks, laminated by vacuum infusion. The outer skin forward of the keel is Kevlar for impact resistance.



This is better than Oyster or Halberg Rassey (especially later Rasseys which start to use some mass production techniques) and a universe apart from mass produced boats which are largely thin single skin hulls with glued in trays, and hull liners -- a totally different approach, much more efficient, but much less strong.


There are other good features. Moody was the first high end builder to use CNC cut glued down teak decks instead of screwed through the deck -- a huge leap forward. The only part of the Moody company to survive bankruptcy was the deck making shop, which even now makes decks for Discovery and Oyster. Also the technical installations are of fantastic quality; electrical systems, ventilation, etc.



Where Moodys, even the last generation, fall down compared to other high end boats, however, is the fitout, which is just not as elegant and not as well designed as you find in Oyster or HR. There are some maddeningly missed details, like really crappy latches and other hardware for the joinery. This gives an impression that the boats themselves are a cut below a HR -- the fitout is what you see, right -- but in many respects they are not actually.


Another drawback is that with the company now long gone, forget getting any support. Some of the old Moody engineers and subcontractors are still around, and the Moody Owners' Association is great with keeping databases of parts and components, but this will get worse and worse with time. In contrast, Oyster has a file on every single boat it ever built, and can supply themselves on an instant's notice any part of any element of any of their boats. This is a big advantage.



As to value for money -- I can't comment on that; I don't keep up with the prices. When I bought my 2001 built 54 in 2009, when the Moody company was not yet really cold in its grave, it was not notably less expensive than similar Oysters, although it's hard to compare, because condition and equipment level vary (mine was in unusually good condition but lacking a lot of equipment, since it had been little used, and never crossed an ocean; whereas ALL of the Oysters I looked at were much more worn out, but lavishly equipped with everything you need for blue water cruising). Nowadays that might be different; I don't know. I had a good friend with a late 90's Moody 46 in average condition which he sold a year or so ago for £200 000 (I think), which is less than $300k now that the pound has fallen so much, so I guess that's a pretty good bargain compared to an HR, but quite a bit more expensive than a mass produced boat would be. That's just one data point. Note that the '50's and '60's "gentlemen's yachts" are very expensive; the last generation starting at the end of the 90's are relatively expensive; the "democratic" boats in between are rather less expensive, but you get what you pay for, at least when choosing among different Moodys.



I subjectively consider the last generation Moodys to be somewhat better than similar Hylas, which in my opinion do not have nearly as good electrical systems and other technical installations, and are generally slightly cruder, although these are small differences; Hylas are great boats. When I was buying my boat, I was looking at Oyster 53 and 475, Hylas 54, and Moody 54. I particularly loved the Oyster 475 and had a contract on one; I loved it for the aesthetics and wonderfully elegant fitout, although it was heavy and didn't sail nearly as well as the Moody. The Hylas I liked but it was just not quite as -- "nice" -- in some intangible way. But that's subjective -- you should look at a bunch of boats and make up your own mind.


Be sure and look at Discovery, Contest, Najad besides the brands you mentioned. Discovery is really gorgeous if you don't mind the very odd arrangement plan, with salon seating on a small raised island.



There are not so many of these boats available at any one time, that it makes sense to get hung up on one brand, in my opinion. Cast your net wide and you'll have a better chance of finding that boat which is just right for you.

[Cheechako]

The only Moody I saw closely was a new one. How is a boat with faux wood cabinet doors a "high end" one?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

The only Moody I saw closely was a new one. How is a boat with faux wood cabinet doors a "high end" one?

Depends when you saw it..

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by nuru05

My understanding is that they were on par with like a Hylas or Tayana for build quality. Which I would consider "high end" compared to like a Jeanneau/bene or Bavaria. Am I mistaken?

Moody's are well respected. no nonsense cruisers but are not really considered "high end" like a Hallberg, Fajad, Swan, Oyster or Amel. As long as you can live without all the oohs and aahs every time you enter a harbor the Moody will serve you just fine. It's not a brand you ever hear anything bad about.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by nuru05

So if I'm choosing between something like a Jeanneau 45ds or a Moody 44 is the moody going to be a significant step up even being 10+ years older for the same price?

I think I'd stick with the Moody. Jeanneaus are to Bene's like Mercury's are to Ford - same maker just a little nicer. Anything older than ten years is going to need a fair bit of upgrading - what you can't change are the structural parts.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

The only Moody I saw closely was a new one. How is a boat with faux wood cabinet doors a "high end" one?

It's not of course. But that was a Hanse, not a Moody.

The Moody company went bankrupt 15 years or so ago. The name was bought by Hanse to lend some cache to Hanse's fancier but still mass produced boats.

There was never a "faux wood cabinet door" on any real English Moody.

[goboatingnow]

Again , having gone down this rabbit hole again recently , I urge caution buying very old boats of whatever brand.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by SofiaB

We seriously looked at the Moody Deck Saloon 45 but I couldn't get past the balsa core. Wife loves the catamaran concept and it appeared to have a great layout and very safe rails. Not sure about the sailing performance based on weight but other than the balsa core I was ready for a test sail.

All Hallberg Rassys, Discoveries, Contests, and Swans, ALL high end European boats except Oystesr, are fully cored, with either balsa or foam. All catamarans are fully cored.

There's nothing wrong with a balsa core if it's done right. Doing it right is expensive, far more expensive than building a single skin hull. Balsa is far stronger than foam (balsa actually has higher specific strength than titanium), but harder to work with.

I don't think anyone has ever heard of a core problem with the English Moodys, which were built with encapsulated balsa blocks, vacuum infused. I can't vouch for the Hanse Moodys. I'm actually kind of surprised if the hull is balsa cored -- mass produced boats are normally made with a thin single skin.

[roland stockham]

High end?? What does that mean? It is similar to housing. High end can been built to a very good design and equipped with the best gear OR it can mean it has a super expensive stereo and separate heads for each cabin. There are some lower budget boats that are strongly built with excellent sailing gear but simple basic accommodation. There are some 'high end boats' that are made to feel like a luxury apartment but it was assumed there would be little or no serious sailing so gear was minimized and kept out of the way of the accommodation even if that compromised sailing performance. There are few truly 'bad' boats or indeed few that would always be 'good'. What you have to do is match the boat to the sailing you expect to do and the crews ability. So a high end boat for island hopping round the Caribbean is not the same as one for doing expeditions to the remote pacific NW.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

High end?? What does that mean? It is similar to housing. . . .

Actually it's not similar to housing. MacMansions are built the same way as any tract housing, only more square feet.

High end boats, on the other hand, are built in a completely different way from mass produced ones.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by nuru05

So the wife and I are starting to get to the point of seriously looking for a boat. We plan to move aboard with our daughter sometime next winter/spring. We have a healthy budget but obviously the more we spend the more time we will have to take off to work each year (we are both nurses so we plan to travel nurse a few months a year).

Recently the Moody's have caught our eye. We love the design of the moody 44 and it might be beating out the previous leader of the Hylas 49 in our minds. The thing that is surprising to us is how much cheaper it is than a lot of other "higher end" boats. It seems like there are a number of Moody 44's <$120k that look to be in pretty good shape. If we can pick one up for that price and get away with only putting another $20-30k into it we would be able to cruise for several years before having to work at all because our previous budget was $250k.


What are your guys' thoughts on them? We are planning to live aboard and cruise at least 9 months a year. We are primarily looking for the older heavier built boats preferably with a center cockpit because safety is key to us.

My take is that they are similar in craftsmanship. If one used tabbed bulkheads and the other used a bonded pan, I would go with the tabbed bulkheads. Easier to see when there are problems and way easier to fix.

Above being equal I would be torn making this decision. The Hylas is much more a sailing machine with the SA/D ratio of 20.0 vs Moody 15.9. The down side to the Hylas is the sails are so big it is going to be harder to deal with them in heavy weather.

You have a daughter. She should have her own berth. In heavy weather berths towards the front of the boat have poorer motion sleeping or resting. In heavy weather your daughter might need to sleep in the main cabin which means she's in the way and more importantly she's been put out of a space that is hers. The Moody has an aft single berth that your daughter could use regardless of the weather.

I would go with the Moody.

[Noisykate]

We have a Moody 42 CC Ketch, built in 1978, and yes, we think its a great boat.
The centre cockpit is a great feature on any crossing where you are short-handed and/or at risk of any weather. Its incredibly 'dry' and feels very safe.

We have lived on board for 5 years, doing around 30,000 miles, and until that time have been on and seen many, many boats, but very few boats we would swap her for, although plenty which make her look 'old fashioned', particularly internally. For 10x our budget, or an open-ended budget(!), we'd have a Rustler. Or perhaps a Garcia. Or if the budget was really fantasy league and we could afford regular yard refurbs, a Spirit!

The CC is great, and served us well through an Atlantic circuit. The boat has now done (we think) at least 5 such circuits, and continues to perform brilliantly. She's slow, compared to a modern boat of a similar size, but very safe and solid, beautifully balanced and 'well behaved', with a flexible sail plan. She runs well on a hydrovane.

As others have said, the modern Moody is built by Hanse, and is now a different animal, comparable with any modern lightweight production boat such as a Beneteau or Jeanneau, with all that entails. We had a tour around the Hanse factory. Hanse built beautiful boats, but... we have been glad many times that ours is older, much more solid and stiff, and much heavier. We watched them take the factory 'staff' boat out of the water to be fixed - it had been grounded (on the soft mud of the southern Baltic!) and had dislodged several of the internal bulkheads. Again. We've grounded ours, and nothing moves.

Plenty of people have the more modern lightweight boats, and love them.

Horses for courses.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Again , having gone down this rabbit hole again recently , I urge caution buying very old boats of whatever brand.

Very good advice.

Anyone considering buying an old boat should soberly evaluate the cost to bring it up to condition, and what the boat will be worth afterwards. Not that often is it worthwhile. But your chances are better with better quality boats.